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Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

dish.andrewsullivan.com

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Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#81

Post by lucian1900 »

f_salmon wrote: post #58
galois17 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[US political system] which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally" err, what? As a foreigner living in the US for the last 5 years I will tell you this: The US political system is regarded as the best example of democracy, by they Americans only. Period. Having lived and traveled in Europe for the most part of my 30 years of my adult life I have heard no person having this perception of the American…

> "[US political system] which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally" As far as I can tell, Switzerland has the best political system (with the most direct democracy) and it's really a shame that nobody seems to want to imitate it (which of course can be explained by the fact that it means more power goes to the People, not corporations/secret gvt agencies/etc, which are often allowed to buy politici…

Except it consistently makes decisions that are bad for most of its populace, like (not) joining the EU and restricting EU immigration.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#82

Post by _xzu »

jtfrench wrote: post #60
galois17 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[US political system] which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally" err, what? As a foreigner living in the US for the last 5 years I will tell you this: The US political system is regarded as the best example of democracy, by they Americans only. Period. Having lived and traveled in Europe for the most part of my 30 years of my adult life I have heard no person having this perception of the American…

You (and many others) are having a knee-jerk reaction to what I said. I'm not saying that the US has the best example of democracy (and based on the rest of my post, you would think that would have come across). What I am saying is that there is a widespread public perception that "America knows best" — the news supports this, Hollywood supports this, and yes, loads of people around the globe support this notion as w…

How I see the situation as an European and Finnish US is as a country and a democracy very mediocre or below median level. It's good place if you have top 95% percentile income but otherwise there are lot's of better places to live in.

In my view one part of the success of US is collective belief in American Dream. If you work hard and try you will get Rich. And this leads to kind of prove of infinite monkey theorem: when lot's of people try to achieve something eventually someone will. Of course this will benefit only small partition of people but others are still satisfied since they have a dream, hope for glory even rationally costs are higher than most probable profits ( see Income inequality in the United States, Socio-economic mobility in the United States, Poverty in the United States ).

I'm very happy that monkeys will keep trying and eventually produce great things to me to consume. This doesn't have anything to do with the democracy in the US though.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#83

Post by TeMPOraL »

NamTaf wrote: post #3
baddox wrote: post #2

Anyone want to make bets over whether anyone will ever be legally punished over this?

Of course they won't. It would take a politically suicidal president or congressperson to try to rein them in, in any way other than as a token gesture.

> It would take a politically suicidal president or congressperson to try to rein them in

And any such person was filtered out long before reaching the position of power. No one will let you take the presidential chair if you're a danger to their interests.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#84

Post by res0nat0r »

josephlord wrote: post #72
jtfrench wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hilarious how you and others ask rhetorical questions like this, as if you had trouble reading what I wrote, and need me to repeat it. Without going into this again, you can refer to my previous comments.

I think the fact that so many people don't understand the point you were making probably means you didn't make the point clearly enough. If you has said "is regarded by Americans as ..." you would have been clear. As it is your comment gives another impression.

He probably is getting tired (as I am) of all of the comments on HN anymore that American government is the worst that has ever been present on planet earth, because the NSA (a spy agency) has been caught spying (their mandate).

If one would ease up on the constant "the government of the USA is literally Hitler" nonsense a bit, maybe more productive talk could occur.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#85

Post by smsm42 »

suprgeek wrote: post #19

So the CIA Illegally Spied on the Congress Staffers investigating illegal CIA Torture Methods? ------illegality recursion too deep----------- But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. These agencies shouldn't be allowed to pull this kind of Shit without suffering serious consequences. Time for the Executive to step-up, fire a bunch of high-rankers and NOT sweep this under the carpet as some sort of "Bad…

When it stops being a "test" and becomes a failure? When Obama retires? I think it is obvious by now Obama was not, is not and will not be willing to do any changes that rein in rampant security apparatus. And why should he? It's not like antiwar/privacy types are going to vote Republican, right? (1% of them may vote Libertarian but since whole Libertarian base is around 1% anyway it's not even on the radar). What's the incentive here? He's not the small government type. He's not a proponent of rigid Constitutional boundaries (except in moments when he wants to invoke those as an excuse for not doing something he doesn't want to do). He's not in fear of loss of votes for himself or his party. He's a darling of all the press except the ones from the opposing party who would hate him anyway. Why exactly should he pay any more than the lip service to this hard and messy issue and engage in this battle which may cost him but will not win him anything he doesn't already have?

>>> Otherwise all that Hope & Change sloganeering will be empty rhetoric.

Will be? Will be? How naive can one be, really? It's going on for over 5 years now, and we're still talking as if Obama is just starting up and if he doesn't do this and that then maybe what he said is just words? Maybe it's time to face it - yes, it's just words.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#86

Post by Ihmahr »

res0nat0r wrote: post #84
josephlord wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that so many people don't understand the point you were making probably means you didn't make the point clearly enough. If you has said "is regarded by Americans as ..." you would have been clear. As it is your comment gives another impression.

He probably is getting tired (as I am) of all of the comments on HN anymore that American government is the worst that has ever been present on planet earth, because the NSA (a spy agency) has been caught spying (their mandate). If one would ease up on the constant "the government of the USA is literally Hitler" nonsense a bit, maybe more productive talk could occur.

Not at all. The point is that he is making a very controversial claim with no evidence or source at all. Also, you are the one dropping the H. bomb.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#87

Post by danbruc »

arethuza wrote: post #77
galois17 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[US political system] which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally" err, what? As a foreigner living in the US for the last 5 years I will tell you this: The US political system is regarded as the best example of democracy, by they Americans only. Period. Having lived and traveled in Europe for the most part of my 30 years of my adult life I have heard no person having this perception of the American…

Actually, while I had exactly the same reaction as you initially I realized, once I had calmed down a bit, that assertion being made is about perception not reality. It wouldn't surprise me that if you did a global poll that the democracy in the US would be subjectively be regarded as "best" - for a lot of reasons: - The size of the US (probably the single biggest factor) - The fact that a lot of people from the US g…

The US have been and are still recognized for their economical strength.

The US have been and are still recognized for their military strength.

The US were once recognized for their democracy but this was some time ago. Today the politics - domestic and foreign - of the US is perceived as corrupt and controlled by the economy. Maybe even as stuck in the cold war.

I think this is a fairly typical perception of the US in western Europe, I am quite sure it is here in Germany. Whether this perception is true or false is a different matter. And if you are not living in a well developed country, if you are living in a non-democratic country, you may of course still perceive the US democracy as desirable.

Germany is often looking at Scandinavia because we think they are doing a couple of things in a better way than we do. You would probably have a hard time or have to look quite some time back to find examples were someone suggested we should do it the American way. Even if you forget about politics and look at the economy. Yes, the economy is recognized as really strong, but it is not perceived as superior.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#88

Post by josephlord »

res0nat0r wrote: post #84
josephlord wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that so many people don't understand the point you were making probably means you didn't make the point clearly enough. If you has said "is regarded by Americans as ..." you would have been clear. As it is your comment gives another impression.

He probably is getting tired (as I am) of all of the comments on HN anymore that American government is the worst that has ever been present on planet earth, because the NSA (a spy agency) has been caught spying (their mandate). If one would ease up on the constant "the government of the USA is literally Hitler" nonsense a bit, maybe more productive talk could occur.

My comment said nothing about the actual position only the fact that the point he was trying to express wasn't clear (previous poster had to follow up to at least three posts to explain it again and I wouldn't have understood the meaning without the follow ups). I wouldn't have commented but for the fact the follow up was blaming others for not understanding rather than accepting the lack of clarity in the post.

I don't believe the USA is Hitler or the worst on the planet but that is not the expectation or standard the US should be held to. It used to be an example to the world (or at least wanted to be one), a shining beacon of hope[0]. Now the standard is "not as bad as China" which is a sad state of affairs and isn't enough to have moral authority in the world.[2]

I haven't seen many (not sure I've seen any) posts saying the US government is Hitler but what I have seen is a number of comparisons to the Stasi. The Stasi were famous for the massive amounts of surveilance and they would have loved the capabilities that the NSA had. That doesn't mean that the results of political opposition in the US are the same as they were in East Germany but East Germany was one of the experiments in the effects on observers and the observed in a mass surveilance society and we should at least look to it for lesson and warnings.

[0] I know that there were always flaws but the aspiration was there.

[2] I'm from and in the UK and I make no claim that we are better in general, while in some ways it feels less corrupt and politically broken than the US sometimes seems we don't bother to restrain GCHQ at all.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#89

Post by thaumasiotes »

aidos wrote: post #73
thaumasiotes wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. > If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus. Ever since someone asked me if I thought GWB was "a good president", I've been mildly interested in what the president is (a) sup…

As far as I can tell it's some sort of interesting issue with the human condition. If you compare pre-presidential Obama's views with the current Obama's you see that he's become totally impotent regarding the issues he argued so strongly about in the past. So something changes once he's in power (I suspect there's a look of talk about what "is in the best interest of the people"). There's nothing physically stopping…

> So something changes once he's in power

But my point is, he's not actually "in power" as far as I can tell. What power is he in? What can he do? And why?

Ilya Somin likes to point out that the government suffers when shark attacks occur, no matter that there is generally no conceivable relationship between them. Is respect for the office of the president backed by anything more substantial?

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#90

Post by arethuza »

danbruc wrote: post #87
arethuza wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, while I had exactly the same reaction as you initially I realized, once I had calmed down a bit, that assertion being made is about perception not reality. It wouldn't surprise me that if you did a global poll that the democracy in the US would be subjectively be regarded as "best" - for a lot of reasons: - The size of the US (probably the single biggest factor) - The fact that a lot of people from the US g…

The US have been and are still recognized for their economical strength. The US have been and are still recognized for their military strength. The US were once recognized for their democracy but this was some time ago. Today the politics - domestic and foreign - of the US is perceived as corrupt and controlled by the economy. Maybe even as stuck in the cold war. I think this is a fairly typical perception of the US…

I probably should have added that I don't think US democracy is held in high regard here in Europe - I am in the UK and I suspect most people here feel that the Scandinavian countries, Germany and Switzerland probably have better functioning democracies than we do. When people talk about our political system in the UK becoming more like the US model it isn't regarded as a good thing!
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