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Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

dish.andrewsullivan.com

71–80 of 98 posts

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#71
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But seriously this is a critical test for Pres. Obama. A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. He can't even get rid of Guantanamo, which was central to his campaign. His response to the Snowden leaks was entirely supportive of the intelligence community, against the general public's perception of what happened. A political figure like him supporting Snowden would have made a massive…

So is the summary of your message that it's acceptable for the President to just give in to pressure from his subordinates? He is either incompetent or complacent, whichever you position you align with doesn't change the end result for the country.

I'd say it's not acceptable, it's not even inevitable, it's just obvious. You can't get that high in politics without owing lots of things to lots of different people and groups, and I doubt they'd let people who are not loyal to them that high. Maybe the first presidents had some real power, but the current system is designed to filter out quickly people who are too much of a trouble for the status quo.

I find this another reason to stay as far away from politics as possible if one wants to really change anything in this world.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) > regarded best globally Excuse me?

I find it hilarious how you and others ask rhetorical questions like this, as if you had trouble reading what I wrote, and need me to repeat it. Without going into this again, you can refer to my previous comments.

I think the fact that so many people don't understand the point you were making probably means you didn't make the point clearly enough. If you has said "is regarded by Americans as ..." you would have been clear. As it is your comment gives another impression.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus. If this is case, and if we as (Americans? people?) tolerate it, then I guess it's our implicit way of saying "corruption is indeed…

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. > If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus. Ever since someone asked me if I thought GWB was "a good president", I've been mildly interested in what the president is (a) sup…

As far as I can tell it's some sort of interesting issue with the human condition. If you compare pre-presidential Obama's views with the current Obama's you see that he's become totally impotent regarding the issues he argued so strongly about in the past. So something changes once he's in power (I suspect there's a look of talk about what "is in the best interest of the people").

There's nothing physically stopping him - he's in a position where he addresses the world. He could very well stand up at his next speech and say "I'm very worried about the seemingly illegal activities of govt agencies... I've struggled change anything because... There are powers in play would prefer...". As a human being on this earth there's absolutely nothing stopping him from doing that but we all know it's never going to happen.

It's sad really.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#74

This just in: spy organization spies on important national political figures. Did you guys never hear of intelligence agencies before Snowden leaked his docs? This is normal and expected. It's the reason intelligence agencies and spies exist. They're supposed to spy on the most important people in the world, and make sure that the important people don't plan anything the agency's employers may consider ... untoward.

> They're supposed to spy on the most important people in the world, and make sure that the important people don't plan anything the agency's employers may consider ... untoward.

Except of course for the part where the CIA is explicitly legally barred from domestic US spying, and where they were spying on their employers.

Am I surprised? No, not at all. I'm from Norway. Most people would probably consider Norway less likely to be involved in sinister surveillance activity than a country like the US.

Yet 20 years ago, an investigation into the Police Security Service finally got underway, and everyone were shocked - shocked, I say - to find out that the several decades of illegal surveillance of left wing groups that any member of either of the communist parties or socialist groups had known, and publicly alleged, were happening had actually been happening (they knew, because members of the security service made it abundantly clear, by e.g. occasionally stopping people on the street and making fun of them over details of conversations they'd had in the privacy of their own home).

When the establishment finally accepted that the security service had to be reigned in, a parliamentary commission was established. During the investigation into the security service, it quickly became clear that they were still engaged in the illegal surveillance while the commission was investigating them. Not only that, but it was revealed that they were illegally spying on the chairman - a well respected member of parliament - of the commission investigating their illegal spying.

So I'm not the least bit surprised. But that does not mean it is legal, or what they are "supposed" to do.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#76

This just in: spy organization spies on important national political figures. Did you guys never hear of intelligence agencies before Snowden leaked his docs? This is normal and expected. It's the reason intelligence agencies and spies exist. They're supposed to spy on the most important people in the world, and make sure that the important people don't plan anything the agency's employers may consider ... untoward.

This.

I understand that now it's a little different because we had hard evidence, but it shouldn't be as surprising as it seems to be to people!

It is obvious that if something can be done and can benefit folks with enough money, it will be done. There are no "checks and balances" on the level of intelligence agencies, because by definition we pay them to do things that would be prosecuted if discovered.

It smells to me like the "hammer and nails" proverb in reverse. Spies are building super sophisticated hammers and people really, really don't expect them to use those hammers to nail things everywhere?

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> A critical test? He doesn't have enough power to do anything about it. If this is indeed true, then it would mean that the US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) is corrupt from the core and the idea of checks & balances is completely bogus. If this is case, and if we as (Americans? people?) tolerate it, then I guess it's our implicit way of saying "corruption is indeed…

"[US political system] which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally" err, what? As a foreigner living in the US for the last 5 years I will tell you this: The US political system is regarded as the best example of democracy, by they Americans only. Period. Having lived and traveled in Europe for the most part of my 30 years of my adult life I have heard no person having this perception of the American…

Actually, while I had exactly the same reaction as you initially I realized, once I had calmed down a bit, that assertion being made is about perception not reality.

It wouldn't surprise me that if you did a global poll that the democracy in the US would be subjectively be regarded as "best" - for a lot of reasons:

- The size of the US (probably the single biggest factor)

- The fact that a lot of people from the US genuinely believe that their system of government is the best (a view they are perfectly entitled to) and are rather evangelical about this belief

- The strength of US consumer brands that, at least historically, were associated with "freedom". A lot of the US worldview often seems to have remained frozen in a rather Cold War perspective (e.g. referring to the US President as "leader of the free world" - which always makes me grind my teeth when I see it).

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#78
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US political system (which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally) > regarded best globally Excuse me?

I find it hilarious how you and others ask rhetorical questions like this, as if you had trouble reading what I wrote, and need me to repeat it. Without going into this again, you can refer to my previous comments.

You make an outrages claim that I believe to be false, so I would like to see a source.

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#79
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think firing is going to do much though it is a good start. It's the law that needs change. In fact, in Edgar Hoover's FBI era, spying on the entire government was a norm. Presidents were afraid of Hoover. Before we end up with a second Edgar, or a second McCarthy Red Scare, yeah, I think we should step up and make a firm change. But I am hopeless. Election is coming up and everyone is too busy on every other…

OK, but there is a problem upstream of that -- the CIA has NO jurisdiction inside the US. They are a foreign intelligence operation. Myself, I'd propose a battle royale between the CIA and NSA. Do a giant wargame, see which can pwn the other faster/better. Two agencies enter, one leaves. The surviving agency is then split into foreign and domestic branches, with a sane level of cooperation.

They'd probably secretly take down the government, one executive at a time, and then the (new) president would say, "yeah, this was kind of pointless, let's leave the two agencies be".

Re: Yes, The CIA Spied On Congress

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[US political system] which is regarded as the best example of democracy, globally" err, what? As a foreigner living in the US for the last 5 years I will tell you this: The US political system is regarded as the best example of democracy, by they Americans only. Period. Having lived and traveled in Europe for the most part of my 30 years of my adult life I have heard no person having this perception of the American…

You (and many others) are having a knee-jerk reaction to what I said. I'm not saying that the US has the best example of democracy (and based on the rest of my post, you would think that would have come across). What I am saying is that there is a widespread public perception that "America knows best" — the news supports this, Hollywood supports this, and yes, loads of people around the globe support this notion as w…

There is a deeply imbued adoration for America as a model of "all that a country can aspire to be" — and this image is what I'm referring to.

There may have been briefly, just after WWII, but that hasn't been even slightly true for decades. Certainly not since Vietnam.

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