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Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

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Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#81

Post by erichocean »

saryant wrote: post #29
zacinbusiness wrote: post #28

I dislike politics in general because, really, it's all just a giant reality tv show. I lost faith when I was in high school, actually, because President Bush stood on national television and said that they couldn't find any weapons in Afghanistan and that was proof that they were there. And nobody, or at least nobody that I had exposure to, thought that was the stupidest thing they had ever heard. Since then, I've s…

My father is a lobbyist in DC and he calls it "Hollywood with ugly people." Sounds about right.

That's the joke about DC in Hollywood, too.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#82

Post by tzs »

zenbowman wrote: post #35

Very thankful we have a few good men like Rand still in politics.

How can you tell? As far as I can tell, he has never done anything while in Congress that actually accomplished anything non-trivial and non-transitory.

Read his bills, instead of his press releases, if you want to actually know something about him.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#83

Post by webXL »

rohunati wrote: post #58
saraid216 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. We're busy training the next generation of knowledge workers. Things like "how to construct a cogent argument based upon a reasoned moral framework" or "how to distill essential points and deduce the original line of reasoning from a long-form essay" are artsy fartsy humanities unnecessary to getting a paycheck in the real world.

Haha if that's the case, then we're all going to end up like drones. We'll only be able to do what we're told and we won't be able to think for ourselves. We'll never be able to think deeply about issues, because hey -- that's useless! That won't get me a paycheck! Innovation is inherently interdisciplinary. If we aren't exposed to different ways of thought, we won't be able to approach problems from the variety of d…

Innovation can be interdisciplinary, but my suspicion is that specialization leads to more of it. That's not saying that all political innovation benefits society equally and we need more political scientists and politicians. At some point we need to start solving more problems outside the realm of politics.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#84

Post by saraid216 »

winslow wrote: post #64
gizmo686 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minor nitpick, a president can be sued, however they have the right to refuse to be sued.

What would that imply for this case then? Assuming President Obama refuses to be sued, does that throw the case out? Or does the case still proceed with the other defendants? Can all the other defendants refuse to be sued as well?

I'm pretty sure gizmo686 is referring to "executive privilege". Clinton tried to invoke it during the whole Lewinsky thing and was told that it doesn't apply to personal stuff.

(This is entirely from me reading Wikipedia earlier today.)

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#85

Post by hrkristian »

x0054 wrote: post #47
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

I would venture to guess that their are a lot of people in United States who believe in cutting government spending and fiscal responsibility but at the same time are socially liberal, and believe that people should be given opportunities and left alone to do what they will with their life and have sex and marry who ever they want (assuming consent and free will). Basically, something tells me that there are a lot of…

We have that party here in Norway, and it doesn't really work as you want it to.

When you base your political stance on reason and reflection, you're appealing to a ridiculously small portion of the population. Most people either won't be able to grasp it, or does not have/take the time to do so.

Not to complain, the situation feels pretty good over here, with political power shared between multiple parties. It's still frustrating trying to debate politics, because you cannot argue facts with a person driven by emotions. Trying to means racing against the clock of attention span, while ELI5'ing as best you can, and this is on an individual level, debate panels are even worse because you're even more time-constrained and cannot assess an individual's response to better reach them.

This of course, leads me to my point, politics are what they are because there is no demand for truth, there is only a demand for emotional gratification. It's easier to sell war against satanic evil, than it is to sell funding for research into solar energy hodgepodge technology.

> Water tubes? Why don't I just go in the back yard and fill up some bottles! hah!

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#86

Post by murph45 »

threeseed wrote: post #53
zenbowman wrote: post #35

Very thankful we have a few good men like Rand still in politics.

Please. There is nothing good about Rand. He is just cynically trying to stoke the libertarian base.

I agree there's nothing good about Obama and that he just cynically tries to stoke the socialist base every time he does something.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#87

Post by dopamean »

abtinf wrote: post #40
k-mcgrady wrote: post #9

Why is the lawsuit against Obama? Shouldn't it be against the USG or the part of the government that passed the law (or against the NSA for the data collection)? It seems strange to sue an individual politician, president or not.

The lawsuit is against Obama because the actions were taken by the executive branch, Obama is the President, and the President is the executive branch.

And that is why this is such a preposterous idea. You can't actually sue the President for things he does as the President. If it were for private actions taken as a private citizen that would be different.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#88

Post by tmuir »

cwisecarver wrote: post #75
x0054 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would venture to guess that their are a lot of people in United States who believe in cutting government spending and fiscal responsibility but at the same time are socially liberal, and believe that people should be given opportunities and left alone to do what they will with their life and have sex and marry who ever they want (assuming consent and free will). Basically, something tells me that there are a lot of…

I totally agree. I am the guy you just described and I think of myself as a libertarian, before the Tea Party ruined the term. I'd like us to rein in spending and make lawmakers accountable for the money they vote to spend. At the same time I'm in favor of absolutely anyone doing absolutely anything they want so long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. Marry three desk lamps and a fishing pole if you wan…

>I want the post-WWII days back where we didn't bother anyone that didn't bother us first.

Perhaps you meant the word "days" literally. The CIA, created in 1947, solely exists to butt into other countries affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re...

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#89

Post by 70forty »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #33
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

That is the main problem I see with modern politics. It basically becomes "stereotypes of the left versus stereotypes of the right". A friend of a friend told me that he didn't see Gay marriage being outlawed in many states as a civil rights issue. I said I did. At this point, he asked "so you're a democrat?" I said "not really, I don't think of myself as associated with either party" and his answer was, no joke, "we…

as if every Democrats brain is connected to one thought center and the same with Republicans.

For most Americans, this may as well be the case (or is the case already... Fox News vs. MSNBC)

From my earliest awareness of politics, I always found it totally bizarre that a person's opinion on, say, gay marriage bore such a strong correlation to their opinions on foreign policy, the economy, social programs, etc. It's absolute insanity, and yet a very small number of people seem to see through it.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#90

Post by habitue »

jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

Politics is the mind-killer: http://lesswrong.com/lw/gw/politics_is_the_mindkiller/

It takes a concerted effort to think of political issues purely consequentially.

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