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Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

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Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#51

Post by febeling »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #33
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

That is the main problem I see with modern politics. It basically becomes "stereotypes of the left versus stereotypes of the right". A friend of a friend told me that he didn't see Gay marriage being outlawed in many states as a civil rights issue. I said I did. At this point, he asked "so you're a democrat?" I said "not really, I don't think of myself as associated with either party" and his answer was, no joke, "we…

I agree, and I think this decoupling of individual political decisions from party lines is one of the main benefits of direct democracy. You don't have to vote red or blue every four years and then live with the consequences.

In Switzerland, where this is the way the government and lawmaking works, many things are dealt with in parliament to keep the process economic, but they can fairly easily escalated to a plebiscite.

At the same time, the government as far less partisan and generally constituted by member of all mainstream parties.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#52

Post by saraid216 »

rohunati wrote: post #43
ryguytilidie wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the main problem I see with modern politics. It basically becomes "stereotypes of the left versus stereotypes of the right". A friend of a friend told me that he didn't see Gay marriage being outlawed in many states as a civil rights issue. I said I did. At this point, he asked "so you're a democrat?" I said "not really, I don't think of myself as associated with either party" and his answer was, no joke, "we…

This is exactly the problem. We could be having deep, analytical discussions about the principles and philosophies that form the basis of our political convictions. Instead, our conversations are tainted by partisanship.

I'm sorry. We're busy training the next generation of knowledge workers. Things like "how to construct a cogent argument based upon a reasoned moral framework" or "how to distill essential points and deduce the original line of reasoning from a long-form essay" are artsy fartsy humanities unnecessary to getting a paycheck in the real world.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#54

Post by OnyeaboAduba »

dmix wrote: post #38
wutbrodo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty _horrible_ example of the parties coalescing into a single viewpoint, since intentionally defaulting on our debts is an extremist view by any definition. That's like saying "clearly the two parties are basically the same because they both don't support nuking Russia". "Both parties agree not to act like lunatics" is a terrible example of "the parties are merging". A much less bizarre example would be…

This is not an extreme example. The alternative was conditional terms on expanding the debt limit, not defaulting on the debt. The bill passed without any additional restrictions on spending or changes to collection. The national debt is one of the biggest issues in the country right now and both parties are doing little to stop its expansion. As I said in my original comment, the fringe are the ones who are legitima…

If you owe your bank 10000 dollars and cant pay you have a problem if you owe your bank 1 million (or in our case 17 trillion)and cant pay they have a problem.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#55

Post by shasta »

x0054 wrote: post #47
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

I would venture to guess that their are a lot of people in United States who believe in cutting government spending and fiscal responsibility but at the same time are socially liberal, and believe that people should be given opportunities and left alone to do what they will with their life and have sex and marry who ever they want (assuming consent and free will). Basically, something tells me that there are a lot of…

> Why isn't there a 3rd party?

http://www.gametheory.net/News/Items/120.html

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#56

Post by sdegutis »

ryguytilidie wrote: post #33
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

That is the main problem I see with modern politics. It basically becomes "stereotypes of the left versus stereotypes of the right". A friend of a friend told me that he didn't see Gay marriage being outlawed in many states as a civil rights issue. I said I did. At this point, he asked "so you're a democrat?" I said "not really, I don't think of myself as associated with either party" and his answer was, no joke, "we…

> That is the main problem I see with modern politics.

I'd have to disagree. The main problem I see with politics these days is that it fundamentally disagrees with the way that the world works best, and it puts this incorrect view into action. That's quite contrary to what it should do, and it's a source of frustration. Ideally, politics should change its stance on core issues to be more inline with what it should be, and legislate accordingly.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#57

Post by dmix »

OnyeaboAduba wrote: post #54
dmix wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not an extreme example. The alternative was conditional terms on expanding the debt limit, not defaulting on the debt. The bill passed without any additional restrictions on spending or changes to collection. The national debt is one of the biggest issues in the country right now and both parties are doing little to stop its expansion. As I said in my original comment, the fringe are the ones who are legitima…

If you owe your bank 10000 dollars and cant pay you have a problem if you owe your bank 1 million (or in our case 17 trillion)and cant pay they have a problem.

A significant portion of the debt is held by Americans. I don't get your point.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#58

Post by rohunati »

saraid216 wrote: post #52
rohunati wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. We could be having deep, analytical discussions about the principles and philosophies that form the basis of our political convictions. Instead, our conversations are tainted by partisanship.

I'm sorry. We're busy training the next generation of knowledge workers. Things like "how to construct a cogent argument based upon a reasoned moral framework" or "how to distill essential points and deduce the original line of reasoning from a long-form essay" are artsy fartsy humanities unnecessary to getting a paycheck in the real world.

Haha if that's the case, then we're all going to end up like drones. We'll only be able to do what we're told and we won't be able to think for ourselves. We'll never be able to think deeply about issues, because hey -- that's useless! That won't get me a paycheck!

Innovation is inherently interdisciplinary. If we aren't exposed to different ways of thought, we won't be able to approach problems from the variety of different perspectives that are both necessary and key to creative problem solving.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#59

Post by gnaritas »

jdreaver wrote: post #20
diminoten wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is right vs. left. He wouldn't have done this to a Republican president, do you think he, Rand Paul, would have? Do you know much about Rand Paul? The man's entire political career is based on acting the partisan part. Like it or not, everything literally is partisan politics. No issue in the US rises above partisanship. That's the system we live in, you'll just have to accept that or attempt to change it direct…

I know it is right vs left, and I don't care. Being a pawn in the right vs left debate is a waste of time. I care about the actual effects of this suit. > Like it or not, everything literally is partisan politics. No issue in the US rises above partisanship. That's the system we live in, you'll just have to accept that or attempt to change it directly. Are you kidding me? There is so much to life besides partisan pol…

Not playing is not playing, it's not a winning move, it's no move. Nor did he say anything about life being partisan politics; he said issues, i.e. political issues are all partisan.

> It is indeed possible to change the world without using the government and partisan politics.

For 99.999% of people, no, it's really not. Voting is the most powerful thing you can do to change things in any meaningful way. Those who show up run the show; those who don't show up follow the laws passed by those who do.

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