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Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

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Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#31

Post by tanon500 »

diminoten wrote: post #16
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

This is right vs. left. He wouldn't have done this to a Republican president, do you think he, Rand Paul, would have? Do you know much about Rand Paul? The man's entire political career is based on acting the partisan part. Like it or not, everything literally is partisan politics. No issue in the US rises above partisanship. That's the system we live in, you'll just have to accept that or attempt to change it direct…

If you have the power and opportunity to change a wrong, but do nothing, then you're as culpable as whoever caused the wrong in the first place.

In this case we're proving that a wrong occurred by attempting to get retribution for the alleged wrong - whoever is targeted (be they Rep. Dem. Lib.) is inconsequential for the general public, aside from adjusting voting patterns in the future.

Once the suit determines culpability, we can find ways to prevent the wrong from happening in the first place.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#32

Post by zacinbusiness »

ethana wrote: post #21
k-mcgrady wrote: post #9

Why is the lawsuit against Obama? Shouldn't it be against the USG or the part of the government that passed the law (or against the NSA for the data collection)? It seems strange to sue an individual politician, president or not.

I figure the NSA, like CIA, is under ultimate authority of the Commander-in-chief and POTUS. So the lawsuit have to file against whatever administration is currently in office.

Are any of these organizations really under anyone's authority?

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#33

Post by ryguytilidie »

jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

That is the main problem I see with modern politics. It basically becomes "stereotypes of the left versus stereotypes of the right". A friend of a friend told me that he didn't see Gay marriage being outlawed in many states as a civil rights issue. I said I did. At this point, he asked "so you're a democrat?" I said "not really, I don't think of myself as associated with either party" and his answer was, no joke, "well how can I understand why you believe what you do without knowing what party you're in?" as if every Democrats brain is connected to one thought center and the same with Republicans. The strawmen that come out of this are utterly insane. "well you think what Christie did with closing the bridge and putting lives in danger was bad? What about Benghazi?!?!" as if you had to be on team Benghazi is bad or team Christie closing the bridge was bad and there were no other options. It's incredibly depressing really.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#34

Post by saraid216 »

jfc wrote: post #12

The complaint - https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1017524-rand-paul-co... What's frustrating is that I had to search through 5 articles/blog posts to find it. Why do media outlets post articles on any lawsuit without a link to the complaint?

I searched through more before I gave up and refreshed HN hoping for a link. Thank you for finding it.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#36

Post by saraid216 »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #9

Why is the lawsuit against Obama? Shouldn't it be against the USG or the part of the government that passed the law (or against the NSA for the data collection)? It seems strange to sue an individual politician, president or not.

So, looking at the complaint, it actually names Obama (POTUS), Clapper (Director of Nat. Int.), Alexander (Director of NSA), and Comey (Director of FBI) as defendants. This seems reasonable to me.

This is the bulk of page 5.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#37

Post by mkaziz »

nhebb wrote: post #26
jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

Ever since reading about the Robbers Cave Experiment [1], I have trouble looking at politics without seeing it through that lens. [1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/lt/the_robbers_cave_experiment/

Ahh, a great classic. You can view all humanity through that lens, all the time.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#38

Post by dmix »

wutbrodo wrote: post #23
dmix wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both parties are slowly merging into one anyway: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/us/politics/boehner-to-... The only notable difference these days is the fringes (where Rand Paul and Tea Party reside) vs the single party.

That's a pretty _horrible_ example of the parties coalescing into a single viewpoint, since intentionally defaulting on our debts is an extremist view by any definition. That's like saying "clearly the two parties are basically the same because they both don't support nuking Russia". "Both parties agree not to act like lunatics" is a terrible example of "the parties are merging". A much less bizarre example would be…

This is not an extreme example. The alternative was conditional terms on expanding the debt limit, not defaulting on the debt. The bill passed without any additional restrictions on spending or changes to collection.

The national debt is one of the biggest issues in the country right now and both parties are doing little to stop its expansion. As I said in my original comment, the fringe are the ones who are legitimately different from the single party, for example, as you mentioned, the Tea Partiers would support either defaulting or significant restrictions on spending.

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#39

Post by larrys »

jdreaver wrote: post #3

Take a look at the comments section if you want to see political tribalism at its best. > I thought Bush orchestrated the Patriot Act... who knew..? > Regardless of your opinion of the surveillance, you gotta see this as a cynical political move. Bet he wouldn't sue a Republican president. Isn't good enough to disagree with Obama - a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base. Everything…

"a candidate has to demonstrate outrage with him to gain cred with the base."

This is for publicity purposes nothing more than that. (Of course he also believes in what he is doing but the main driver is to give him even more household recognition).

After all Paul represents Kentucky. So why fight a battle for all of us. I hate when politicians do things like this (In NY Spitzer did this and Schumer does the same). They take on issues that garner much press mention which is not to say they don't have benefits to those in their state.)

See "grandstanding"

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-engli...

Re: Obama Sued by Rand Paul Over Phone Surveillance Program

#40

Post by abtinf »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #9

Why is the lawsuit against Obama? Shouldn't it be against the USG or the part of the government that passed the law (or against the NSA for the data collection)? It seems strange to sue an individual politician, president or not.

The lawsuit is against Obama because the actions were taken by the executive branch, Obama is the President, and the President is the executive branch.
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