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Girls and Software

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Re: Girls and Software

#281

Post by girvo »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #189
superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

One summer in my childhood, my parents decided to severely restrict my siblings and I's access to the internet for unspecified reasons. We were each allowed 30 minutes use of the family computer and its Internet connection, which was "locked down" by passwords on the BIOS and Windows 98 screensaver. The laptop I shared with my brother and sister was still connected to our home LAN (through one of those crazy Intel An…

I had the same experience. Various NetNanny-risqué applications placed on the main computer fell to deliberate corruption of their various libraries; I hooked up a tiny Bluetooth dongle to my terrible P2 laptop and the home computer and set up a PAN for access on my phone and computer... eventually the parental units gave up. I now make a lot of money building stuff instead of breaking things :)

Re: Girls and Software

#282

Post by facepalm »

codygman wrote: post #213
fudged71 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wanted to mention this for a while but the topic hadn't come up. My engineering faculty tried many things to get more girls in the program, including having girls-only events with the female dean. Of course, all students got these emails, and many of us guys were left wondering why we never had the chance to meet the dean in events like these. Excluding sometimes seems worse than the biases these programs aim to…

Excluding the more privileged sometimes seems worse than the bias which excludes the less privileged? That doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

While I don't agree with your assessment of privileges, let's look at it in another way: should boys be artificially constrained so that they don't outperform girls (and I am not implying boys would outperform girls, just that that is what society seems to think)? If you offer a robotics course only for girls, but not for boys, this is what you are effectively doing. You may end up with a better gender ratio, by preventing boys from getting into robotics (I doubt it'll work that way, but let's assume it does). Is this the way we want society to resolve this issue? Why not foster everybody's talents?

Re: Girls and Software

#283

Post by facepalm »

belorn wrote: post #184
e12e wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about stuff like the research cited here: http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/papers/genderbias.html (I can't find the actual project I was thinking off, but this seems to be a good enough example of what I don't consider to be "poor at best, non-existent at worse".)

Let see what findings the cited studies in the paper has to say: "teachers give boys greater opportunity to expand ideas and be animated than they do girls and that they reinforce boys more for general responses than they do for girls." (1994) "teachers who are made aware of their gender-biased teaching behaviors and then provided with strategies and resources to combat bias are better able to promote gender equity i…

I think that kind of research is interesting, but feminists are prone to jumping to conclusions. All sorts of things could happen in the classroom. For example, maybe boys raise their finger more often to ask questions (no idea, just an example). That could be a reason for "teachers giving them more time and space". No theory of discrimination necessary. Or maybe boys are dumber and need more help than girls - another possible way to explain the measurements without calling for discrimination.

But "feminist scientists" (deliberate ") WANT to see discrimination. As soon as they see any data that can be interpreted to support the presence of discrimination, the case is closed and no further inquiry is being made.

For example, in the wage gap discussion, I have never seen anybody ask an employer why they pay women less. Who knows, there might be some surprising answers.

Re: Girls and Software

#284

Post by LinXitoW »

superuser2 wrote: post #12

>Parents are warned to keep kids off the computer This point cannot be overstated. I'd never have been a hacker without vast quantities of unsupervised, unfiltered internet time around age 9-12. The largest enabling step for me was when I got my own laptop which I was free to break (software-wise) and free to take into my room so I could focus away from the distracting noises of the kitchen/living room. Much of even…

I think just like with condoms vs. abstinence, the big issue is lazy parenting. Teach them about viruses, about people lying, about phishing etc. , THEN leave them to their own devices. Don't just shut it off because you cant be bothered.

Re: Girls and Software

#285

Post by LinXitoW »

archagon wrote: post #167
Crito wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young, probably 12 or 13 I think, I saw a series of images of a spider bite on a mans thumb causing the thumb to swell, split open, go necrotic, and eventually require amputation. Did this damage me? No, I'm fine. I gagged when I saw the images, then I scrolled down and looked at some more. Lasting effects? Well today as an adult, I smash spiders when I see them. Not a big deal.

I disagree. I saw a ton of stuff I never should have seen at that age. It didn't scar me for life, but it's desensitized me to a lot of terrible things. Unless you're a doctor, I just don't think it's healthy to look at NSFL gore, go "meh", and move on to something else. I also occasionally have those images flash in my head. I don't want them there, but there's nothing I can do about that now. (Granted, the same thi…

I've personally observed a big difference between my reaction to pictures/videos vs. the real thing. When my dads bone peeked out of his arm after breaking it i almost vomited, but gore doesnt phase me. Normal porn doesnt do much for me, but in real life, even just my clothed girlfirend can have me standing at attention.

Re: Girls and Software

#286

Post by belorn »

phazmatis wrote: post #247
tedks wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are plenty of feminist research that shows there exist an gender imbalance in STEM, and most studies gives one or other kind of theory around the why. The theories are however rarely if ever tested. The "years of feminist research" has not gotten to that part yet, and won't until we demand more from researchers than summery of latest census data. Could you give specific examples? Please limit yourself to peer-…

Could you give specific examples? Please limit yourself to peer-reviewed journals in psychology and sociology.

While I too would really like to see such peer-reviwed journals, I can go first so tedks can post afterward.

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/gender-societ... (2012 study published in Sociology)

That study do reference a bunch of other study, some which did also polls rather than just census data. However, note the mass use of the words "could be", "potentially", "suggests" and so on. I choose to interpret those words as "further study is needed" each time they are used, limiting the article to only what has the word "finding" on it.

Re: Girls and Software

#287

Post by theorique »

timr wrote: post #54
bitwize wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the longest time I harbored the biggest crush on a girl from my high school. The thing that made me fall in love with her (and it was love -- as much love as a 14-year-old could feel) wasn't that she was pretty or cute or popular -- though she was all these things. (Head cheerleader. Literally. Dated a football player and everything.) It was that I had the good fortune to peek over her shoulder at some BASIC code…

"My point here is that you become what you invest time in becoming. If you want to ascend to elite-level hackerdom, then you almost have to put things like attractiveness and popularity on the back burner." No, you really don't. You believe this because it's what you've seen around you, but that's a selection bias. Someone else on this thread pointed out that Von Neumann was an exceptionally stylish guy, but he's far…

If anecdotes count as evidence, we can point at Erdos for a counterexample (dedicated only to mathematics, could barely dress himself, lived homeless and traveled from friend's house to friend's house to work on mathematics).

So much of this depends on individual interest and temperament.

Re: Girls and Software

#288

Post by mtrimpe »

pdonis wrote: post #140
mtrimpe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is though that she is in a very rare, privileged position. She liked her community, fit in well, felt protected and cared for, wasn't troubled by the gender ratio and all in all was just happy with her situation. For a very large amount of women that is unfortunately not the case nowadays and unfortunately her situation is not typical in the slightest and I didn't see much actionable advice to improve on th…

nowadays Exactly: it isn't the case now , but it was the case before. Why is that? if we would use it to belittle the work of everyone who is trying to improve the situation But the whole point is that "trying to improve the situation" by making a huge fuss about "women in tech" is counterproductive ; it makes the situation worse , not better. To the extent that there is a "right" approach, IMO it is to not fuss abou…

> Exactly: it isn't the case now, but it was the case before. Why is that?

I don't know; but I do know it's been like that way before the recent fuss about women in tech got started.

> To the extent that there is a "right" approach .. what each individual child is interested in.

Practically speaking then, do you think we would improve the situation in tech if we told everyone who's organizing these events which do explicitly mention gender to stop doing so?

From an idealistic perspective I'm also against women-only events and would prefer them to be perfectly inclusive.

In practice that's a very hard thing to achieve though and if supplanting existing classes with predominantly boys with an explicit girls-only class helps to get some of these girls interested in tech then I'm not one to rain on their parade.

Re: Girls and Software

#289

Post by leoedin »

timr wrote: post #54
bitwize wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the longest time I harbored the biggest crush on a girl from my high school. The thing that made me fall in love with her (and it was love -- as much love as a 14-year-old could feel) wasn't that she was pretty or cute or popular -- though she was all these things. (Head cheerleader. Literally. Dated a football player and everything.) It was that I had the good fortune to peek over her shoulder at some BASIC code…

"My point here is that you become what you invest time in becoming. If you want to ascend to elite-level hackerdom, then you almost have to put things like attractiveness and popularity on the back burner." No, you really don't. You believe this because it's what you've seen around you, but that's a selection bias. Someone else on this thread pointed out that Von Neumann was an exceptionally stylish guy, but he's far…

I agree that it's not a binary situation - I know many people who are capable programmers and have an acceptable sense of style, social skills and other interests. However, time is limited and unless you're exceedingly capable you have to make tradeoffs. It takes an extraordinarily large amount of time to become a truly competent programmer, and if you're spending that time in front a computer you're not actively working at building friendships, thinking about fashion, thinking about music or working on any of the other things that might be equated with being attractive or popular in the vicious world of teenage social structures.

Re: Girls and Software

#290

Post by mtrimpe »

HedgeMage wrote: post #112
marquis wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the reason why classes for girls (not necessarily primarily but directed towards) work so well. Being in a room full of men with few or no women in ANY circumstance is awkward unless you are top of your game.

Sure, it might be awkward at first for girls who don't have a lot of experience in mixed-gender environments. If it's a friendly mixed-gender environment, the awkwardness wears off pretty soon. I've watched it happen. On the other hand, "foo for women" events are high-pressure environments that put a spotlight on poor newbies. It's a way of saying "You aren't just here to learn something, you're representing women, y…

I've actually found that quite a few of the attendees of these events are usually people who already (are trying to) fit in with mainstream hacker culture, but whom often experience similar kinds of challenges in doing so and enjoy being able to both openly discuss these things and not have to worry about them for a bit. Was that different at the events you visited?
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