Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.
Money laundering is not unethical. It wasn't even illegal in the US until 1986. At the time the law was passed we were promised it would only be used against organized crime that couldn't be stopped any other way.
Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
101–110 of 151 posts
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.
I'm not entirely convinced that money laundering is unethical in its own right. Certainly, profiting from unethical activity is only once removed from unethical. That would make obfuscating the taint on unethical-once-removed funds an act that is unethical-twice-removed. Clearly, there has to be some point at which we can no longer care, because I'm not certain that (metaphorically) there is a coin circulating that h…
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#103I would strongly consider not running a money transmitter as a side business. If you do not understand that you are running a money transmitter, I will be happy to elaborate. I would also mention, on the assumption you're not aware of it, that you are offering fairly effective money laundering for credit card thieves at below-market rates for that service, and you can expect heavy dedicated adversarial interest. I ra…
I've been hand-verifying the transactions so far to try to keep abreast of fraud. I've also taken some automated steps (that I'm improving now). I've been reading quite a bit about the money transmitter stuff, but I'd appreciate your take on why this would be categorized.
With gift cards, especially Starbucks gift cards, it's almost (if not literally) impossible to verify legitimacy. Generally, almost anyone attempting this type of fraud, even at the lower levels will:
- Mask the fact that funds are loaded with credit cards in the transaction log by purchasing gift cards with gift cards.
- Use services[2] which sell residential IP's by location (infected systems) as proxies
Unfortunately for the service your offering, Starbucks has an internal chain-disable feature which deactivates any gift cards "downline" of a fraudulently loaded card, hence it's entirely possible that after conducting a card transfer, even one fraudulent transfer could put the entire balance of your legitimate holding account at jeopardy, and the average Starbucks call center representative will be unable to help you.
Services like Cardpool (also offered in-store at Safeway locations) verify individuals identities prior to cash-in, however even with that the amount of fraud they experience is staggering. To give you an idea, the rate of successful, fraudulent transactions experienced by Cardpool in Safeway stores for 2012 was over 20%, compare to the average chargeback rate on an adult site, which is between 0.5 and 2%
I think you've made a smart move to put your project on hold until you have a better grasp of the entire situation.
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's far more akin to a guy who sells guns out of his trunk in a dark alley. Chances are, it's being used for crime, even if there are legitimate uses for it.
No, because selling guns out of your trunk is a crime more often than not. This is a poor analogy.
So is operating an unlicensed money transmission business -- in the US, this is likely to be both a state and federal crime -- or a licensed money transmission business without adhering to appropriate anti-money-laundering controls.
> This is a poor analogy.
Seems to be a spot-on analogy.
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#105I would strongly consider not running a money transmitter as a side business. If you do not understand that you are running a money transmitter, I will be happy to elaborate. I would also mention, on the assumption you're not aware of it, that you are offering fairly effective money laundering for credit card thieves at below-market rates for that service, and you can expect heavy dedicated adversarial interest. I ra…
patio11 is right, you're about to have a major problem with gift cards going bad, which were bought with stolen credit cards. Happy to give more advice, you can reach me via my HN profile. Source: In a similar business for 16 months. (We sell gift cards for $ or BTC, but don't buy gift cards with bitcoin)
I took a look through your site and there are some really great deals (7% cheaper! wow!), great work btw!
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#106After you sell/trade your card, how do others use it to buy coffee?
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.
Can you expand on this? Because the way I'm reading it it sounds like since it "could" be a tool for money laundering the OP shouldn't be doing it. But by that logic a car "could" be used to facilitate a bank robbery and therefore the salesman needs to consider those ethical ramifications.
I suspect most lawyers/regulators would consider changing bitcoin into gift cards is legally like transmitting to cash.
Cars are regulated also, for instance to post a license plate that can be used to identify the owner's name and address, in part because they can be used in crimes.
This isn't _just_ an issue of if the seller is being ethical; it's an issue of whether they're following the law.
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.
I'm not entirely convinced that money laundering is unethical in its own right. Certainly, profiting from unethical activity is only once removed from unethical. That would make obfuscating the taint on unethical-once-removed funds an act that is unethical-twice-removed. Clearly, there has to be some point at which we can no longer care, because I'm not certain that (metaphorically) there is a coin circulating that h…
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.
Can you expand on this? Because the way I'm reading it it sounds like since it "could" be a tool for money laundering the OP shouldn't be doing it. But by that logic a car "could" be used to facilitate a bank robbery and therefore the salesman needs to consider those ethical ramifications.
As for your car example, I'll leave that to the other comments already rebutting it.
Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
Money laundering is not unethical. It wasn't even illegal in the US until 1986. At the time the law was passed we were promised it would only be used against organized crime that couldn't be stopped any other way.
How exactly is money laundering not unethical? What's so ethical about assisting someone in getting away with a crime?
To use an extreme example, was it unethical to hide jews from the Nazi's?