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Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

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Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#101
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.

Money laundering is not unethical. It wasn't even illegal in the US until 1986. At the time the law was passed we were promised it would only be used against organized crime that couldn't be stopped any other way.

How exactly is money laundering not unethical? What's so ethical about assisting someone in getting away with a crime?

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.

I'm not entirely convinced that money laundering is unethical in its own right. Certainly, profiting from unethical activity is only once removed from unethical. That would make obfuscating the taint on unethical-once-removed funds an act that is unethical-twice-removed. Clearly, there has to be some point at which we can no longer care, because I'm not certain that (metaphorically) there is a coin circulating that h…

Money laundering is an act of assisting someone in getting away with a crime. If you inadvertently do so, you're not guilty of money laundering. The intent has to be there.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#103
post #15

I would strongly consider not running a money transmitter as a side business. If you do not understand that you are running a money transmitter, I will be happy to elaborate. I would also mention, on the assumption you're not aware of it, that you are offering fairly effective money laundering for credit card thieves at below-market rates for that service, and you can expect heavy dedicated adversarial interest. I ra…

I've been hand-verifying the transactions so far to try to keep abreast of fraud. I've also taken some automated steps (that I'm improving now). I've been reading quite a bit about the money transmitter stuff, but I'd appreciate your take on why this would be categorized.

I can't give you any input on the legal side of things, however I commented on a thread about 6 months ago regarding gift card fraud[1] and the assumption that it's a new phenomenon.

With gift cards, especially Starbucks gift cards, it's almost (if not literally) impossible to verify legitimacy. Generally, almost anyone attempting this type of fraud, even at the lower levels will:

- Mask the fact that funds are loaded with credit cards in the transaction log by purchasing gift cards with gift cards.

- Use services[2] which sell residential IP's by location (infected systems) as proxies

Unfortunately for the service your offering, Starbucks has an internal chain-disable feature which deactivates any gift cards "downline" of a fraudulently loaded card, hence it's entirely possible that after conducting a card transfer, even one fraudulent transfer could put the entire balance of your legitimate holding account at jeopardy, and the average Starbucks call center representative will be unable to help you.

Services like Cardpool (also offered in-store at Safeway locations) verify individuals identities prior to cash-in, however even with that the amount of fraud they experience is staggering. To give you an idea, the rate of successful, fraudulent transactions experienced by Cardpool in Safeway stores for 2012 was over 20%, compare to the average chargeback rate on an adult site, which is between 0.5 and 2%

I think you've made a smart move to put your project on hold until you have a better grasp of the entire situation.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6175294

[2] http://5socks.net/

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#104
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far more akin to a guy who sells guns out of his trunk in a dark alley. Chances are, it's being used for crime, even if there are legitimate uses for it.

No, because selling guns out of your trunk is a crime more often than not. This is a poor analogy.

> No, because selling guns out of your trunk is a crime more often than not.

So is operating an unlicensed money transmission business -- in the US, this is likely to be both a state and federal crime -- or a licensed money transmission business without adhering to appropriate anti-money-laundering controls.

> This is a poor analogy.

Seems to be a spot-on analogy.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#105
post #84
post #15

I would strongly consider not running a money transmitter as a side business. If you do not understand that you are running a money transmitter, I will be happy to elaborate. I would also mention, on the assumption you're not aware of it, that you are offering fairly effective money laundering for credit card thieves at below-market rates for that service, and you can expect heavy dedicated adversarial interest. I ra…

patio11 is right, you're about to have a major problem with gift cards going bad, which were bought with stolen credit cards. Happy to give more advice, you can reach me via my HN profile. Source: In a similar business for 16 months. (We sell gift cards for $ or BTC, but don't buy gift cards with bitcoin)

How do you handle compliance for your business (the bitcoin->giftcard one). From this discussion it seems like a total minefield. Do you ask your customers for their ID Proof/Address Proof ? (KYC/AML style) I know fraud isn't an issue for you at all because the bitcoin payments would be irreversible.

I took a look through your site and there are some really great deals (7% cheaper! wow!), great work btw!

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.

Can you expand on this? Because the way I'm reading it it sounds like since it "could" be a tool for money laundering the OP shouldn't be doing it. But by that logic a car "could" be used to facilitate a bank robbery and therefore the salesman needs to consider those ethical ramifications.

The difference is that government regulators (in the US at least, but presumably in many other countries soon) have stated that they consider bitcoin exchanges to be money transmitters and therefore regulate them in ways that prevent money laundering (http://blogs.reuters.com/financial-regulatory-forum/2014/01/...).

I suspect most lawyers/regulators would consider changing bitcoin into gift cards is legally like transmitting to cash.

Cars are regulated also, for instance to post a license plate that can be used to identify the owner's name and address, in part because they can be used in crimes.

This isn't _just_ an issue of if the seller is being ethical; it's an issue of whether they're following the law.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.

I'm not entirely convinced that money laundering is unethical in its own right. Certainly, profiting from unethical activity is only once removed from unethical. That would make obfuscating the taint on unethical-once-removed funds an act that is unethical-twice-removed. Clearly, there has to be some point at which we can no longer care, because I'm not certain that (metaphorically) there is a coin circulating that h…

Ethically, there's a difference between profiting incidentally from criminal activity because a fraction of your customers happen to be criminals, and having a business model which is viable largely due to criminal activity.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.

Can you expand on this? Because the way I'm reading it it sounds like since it "could" be a tool for money laundering the OP shouldn't be doing it. But by that logic a car "could" be used to facilitate a bank robbery and therefore the salesman needs to consider those ethical ramifications.

It's all about due diligence. Selling gift cards for bitcoins isn't illegal. However, you need to be aware that it can be easily exploited for money laundering, and you need to take steps to prevent that. And don't think money laundering is something that just happens in the movies. It's a very real problem, and deserves being attended to.

As for your car example, I'll leave that to the other comments already rebutting it.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#110
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money laundering is not unethical. It wasn't even illegal in the US until 1986. At the time the law was passed we were promised it would only be used against organized crime that couldn't be stopped any other way.

How exactly is money laundering not unethical? What's so ethical about assisting someone in getting away with a crime?

I think you need to explain why money laundering is unethical. Because there are plenty of laws passed by various governments that many people feel would be unethical to follow.

To use an extreme example, was it unethical to hide jews from the Nazi's?

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