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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#131

Post by IgorPartola »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense.

First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine?

Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation? What would you do if you living in Kiev right now? Reading more of these comments I am starting to think that most people who express this disdain are really just trolling for Russia.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#132

Post by stdbrouw »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

So you're saying let's not protest because of the smoke?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#133

Post by ghostdiver »

altero wrote: post #55
arrrg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probabl…

> Joining the common European market But this joining would be one direction, Ukraine would not be allowed to export into EU thanks to various regulations. Also Ukraine already has common market with Russia, and this would have to close. This deal is actually really bad for Ukraine.

From typical Ukrainian POV EU is just better place to live and it is all about long term plans. Sure, Ukraine will have difficult time during adoption of EU rules and regulation, but in the end they will have better living.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#134

Post by smsm42 »

memracom wrote: post #96
spikels wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bankrolled by who? EU? US? Who? And do you have any evidence? BTW-Do you get your news from RT?

It could even have been bankrolled from Russia. Even though I speak Russian and some Ukrainian, and I have followed current events in both countries for years, I can't figure out what is actually going on here. Yes, it could be another dumb move by the Americans who have a real habit of foot in mouth internationally, but it could just as well be part of a clever complex multi-year gambit by the Russians who have a st…

Yeah right, that's John Kerry (under orders from Barack Obama) who is orchestrating Ukrainian revolution. That's one of the funniest theories about that whole mess I ever read.

>>> but it could just as well be part of a clever complex multi-year gambit by the Russians who have a strong tradition of playing chess

You realize that not all Russian are the same, not all of them drink vodka, are chess grandmasters, wear ushankas with red stars, play balalaykas and dance with bears on the streets? Traditions of chess have absolutely nothing to do with modern Russian politics (actually The Godfather would be much more instructive there than The Luzhin Defense), though of course Russia meddles with Ukrainian affairs - it's a huge country neighboring them and having centuries-old ties, along with the little fact that it also carries a lot of Russia's gas lines. But that is a trivial conclusion, not very illuminating.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#135

Post by bluekeybox »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

> They want Ukraine to join European union

No. If you were more familiar with the situation, you would understand that EU is only being used as a token signal (not goal) of the direction the country should be heading in. What the protesters really want is for the current government to resign and not to sign a (undoubtedly corrupt) deal with Russia that would effectively infringe on Ukraine's economic and political sovereignty.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#136

Post by x0x0 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #101
memracom wrote: post #69

Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wound…

Bullshit. The people cannot sit down with this criminal president and discuss anything. Ones that do end up in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko . He is stealing from the people ( http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html ) and is actively suppressing all forms of the opposition. Apply your logic to the American revolution and see just how absurd it starts to sound. The please stop tro…

end up in prison and beaten (did they cause her spinal issues or just prevent treatment?)

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#137

Post by jccooper »

hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals."

What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's rather unlikely you'll get it.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#138

Post by mantas »

thesz wrote: post #129
IgorPartola wrote: post #117

Man, the amount of disdain people have for protesters in the comments to this story is really shocking. I do not exactly understand where it's coming from. Yanukovych is a corrupt petty thief and rapist, turned politician, who has very close ties with Russia, and is stealing from the Ukrainian people through corruption. He rigged an election in 2004 and only massive riots prevented him from coming into power then by…

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

FYI, Baltic states and ex-ussr-satellites are doing great in EU. Sure we still got a long way to go. But current state is good enough. Well, at least 10x better than Ukraine, Belorussia and other ex-ussr states that stayed together with Russia.

Many Russians/Ukrainians/Belorussians come to ex-ussr-now-eu for shopping and medical procedures. Why? Stuff is cheaper and better quality here in Lithuania. And salaries are higher too :)

Source: Born and living in Lithuania

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#139

Post by bluekeybox »

huhtenberg wrote: post #88
Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

> And finally, Yanukovych was not only democratically elected You may want to fact-check that. Accounts on the matter, as they say, differ wildly.

Actually he indeed was, but one of his first steps he took immediately after was to imprison his main political opponent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko#2011_trial_and...).

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#140

Post by bluekeybox »

yetanotherphd wrote: post #40
rosser wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True enough. But my extended social circle includes a number of people of Ukrainian nationality and/or descent. Everything I've heard from them (which is, granted, not a lot ; I haven't been tracking these events terribly actively, let alone vis-à-vis their perspectives) tends to corroborate what I'm seeing in this blog post, at least.

There is a very significant pro-Western bias amongst educated people who have moved to the West. If you just looked at educated Chinese immigrants during the last 50 years, you would never guess at the overwhelming support for the communist party.

There is an equally significant anti-Western bias among liberal university-educated people who were born in the U.S, so it mostly balances out. In addition, we now have maps like this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/01/24...
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