Vote it up on Reddit (I am not the one who posted the link over there, of course). http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzyalt.livejour...
Revolution in Kiev
61–70 of 377 posts
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.
The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.
>Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective.
LOL, just ask the Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, Greeks, Hungarians, and co. Here's how this "freedom of labor" works in practice:
"""Humiliating wages, inhuman working conditions and coercion in a country that has declared itself the leader of the EU,” writes Jurnalul National in the wake of an investigation on working conditions of east Europeans in Germany, published by Munich daily Süddeutsche Zeitung and aired on German public television channel ARD. The probe revealed the existence of a mafia-like organisation, which recruits Romanian workers for German companies, and then confiscates their identity papers and threatens them with death if they go to court to have their employment contracts enforced."""
And it's not just some isolated "mafia like organisation" -- the same things happen to migrant workers from all countries and accross tons of fields.
The "common European market" is a lure for smaller countries to become Germany's satellites and for Brussels bureaucrats to rule over the will of the seperate nation-states.
Imagine a Washington tens times more in bed with big corporations and Wall Street, ten times more bureaucratic, and favoring a few states while fucking over the majority of the others. Oh, and with bodies that nobody voted for in power.
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#63I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the Ukrainian revolution, &c ) is very well served by the cacophony of amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event. Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding o…
> amateur/citizen "journalism" No need to put journalism into quotes because it is real journalism what those people are doing.
You're right. Fixed. Thanks!
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#64The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points:
- The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik...
- The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders, Oleh Tyahnybok, leads a fascist party (Svoboda) and has openly spread anti-Semitic rhetoric, and aligned itself with extremist groups. Fairly common knowledge to anyone in the know... You can see the fascist and neo-nazi symbols on many of the protesters. http://en.ria.ru/images/18519/41/185194148.jpg The flags with 3 fingers are Svoboda's symbol, the red and black ones are UPA flags, which are the symbol of a group that collaborated with the Nazis, and are used by fascist groups in Ukraine.
- The protesters have been the most violent force during the protests. In what country do police stand by when Molotov cocktails and fireworks are fired at them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h22oHs3eiLg
- And finally, Yanukovych was not only democratically elected, but because of the split amongst the opposition factions, the PoR will likely win any election that is devoid of outside interference... After the 'Orange Revolution' the opposition united with Yushchenko, now there's 3 large opposition groups (Fatherland, 'Punch', and Svoboda). Considering half the country firmly supports the Party of Regions, the opposition are unlikely to win anything.
Edit - more fascist imagery at the protests: http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan1.jp... http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kiev-maidan2.jp...
Edit2 - the Svoboda/Oleh Tyahnybok fascist/anti-Semitic connection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTjezCzo-BQ
http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukr...
These are the words of Oleh Tyahnybok: "They did not fear, but took up their automatic rifles, going into the woods to fight Muscovites, Germans, Jewry and other filth which wanted to take away our Ukrainian nationhood. It’s time to give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. Like them, you are most feared by the Moscow-Jewish mafia which today runs Ukraine"
http://gwplondon.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/oleg-tyanhybok....
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#65I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests). Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.
So you read it? How will it affect Ukrainian steel exports, on your opinion?
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.
Bankrolled by who? EU? US? Who? And do you have any evidence? BTW-Do you get your news from RT?
Seen from Russia, there is a power struggle between EU and Russia about border drawing between their respective empires. Thinking in "empires" is popular in Russia. So seen from Russia, it is beyond doubt that the Kiev uprising is bankrolled by EU.
Seen from EU, EU hasn't really enough coherence to deal effectively with its internal problems, much less participate in any international power struggles. And the population is deeply tired of expansion. The only empires in the minds of EU are the ghosts of the British and French colonial empires. So EU has neither the will nor the capability to do something like this.
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.
> Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. LOL, just ask the Spanish, Portuguese, Ital…
Aside: you can reply to a comment before its "reply" link has appeared by following the "link" link in the comment's header (next to its score and age/timestamp and such), instead of replying to its parent and breaking the conversation's flow.
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#68I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests). Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.
Can you point to specific paragraphs that would do such things?
For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. So France and other countries would be able to 'dump' their subsidized agricaltural product on Ukranien market. Ukraine farmers do not get subsidy, they have higher prices and would eventually bankrupt.
Industry is concetrated on east and exports/imports mainly to Russia. EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Factories could not sell product and could not import materials.
Joining EU is long process which takes years of negotiation. Poland is good example. But just signing whatever EU throws your direction is very bad deal.
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#69Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wounded by fireworks.
Of course the other side similarly delivers an edited message.
But the bottom line is that none of this is democracy. Whatever it is, it has to end sometime so that all the groups of people who live in Ukraine can sit down, discuss their differences, find compromises and live in peace. Only then will Ukraine really be a nation. Until then it is just a corner of the Soviet Union that has failed to catch up with the modern world.
Re: Revolution in Kiev
#70Reading stuff like this is a wonderful way to remind me how naive and easy to manipulate people generally are.
I can't upvote this enough. People do indeed believe in revolutions, and thinks by burning stuff that wealth will be made. 3 years later (Tunisian here), we found out that it's not a revolution. The dictator might have been ousted by external agencies. While the protests are legit, the outcome is not. This made me a new opinion: You can have power over another entity by using damage (burning, and crashing stuff). But…
Welcome to reality my Tunisian friend. I'm sorry its not more positive because I'm sure you were promised much better.
Yes my country had a "revolution" like this too. I myself was in the streets banging pots and pans and standing up to cordons of riot police. When it was all over, and "real democracy" took over, the country was sold to German banks company by company, factory by factory. Its still in the process of being sold in exchange for the glimmer of hope that we might one day join the glorious EU and its "reasonable" interest rates. That revolution that I really believed would bring about change? It turns out it cost about 100,000 USD to promote it and organize buses to truck people in and equip them to burn a bunch of stuff.