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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#42

A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

From what I heard from Ukrainian friends, the primary matter here is the corruption. President has criminal past, he did time for rape (!) and some petty theft, when he was younger. He was retroactively cleared of charges. Also, strangely enough, all people involved in those cases can longer be found. However he still has strong ties with the criminal world and under his rule and with his assistance existing businesses were routinely and forcibly taken over by an equivalent of mafia. All latest developments with criminalization of government critique, suppressing the right to protest, etc aren't really surprising to anyone there - it's a logical development of things going downhill in past few years.

Sure there's Russia' involvement and geopolitics, but it does appear to be a secondary matter.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#43
post #9

Wow. That photography is mind blowing, as is the entire situation. I hope the small number of casualties remains low as it has. Also, props to them for not looting the businesses on the front line, usually that seems to be what happens! But this seems different, somehow.

It's different because, unlike OWS, this is not an "eat the rich" protest. This is a protest against an authoritarian foreign power imposing its will on what (briefly) has been an independent country.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#45

One thing really stood out to me about this protest, and that is how isolated and targeted it is against government. The writer mentioned how no shopkeepers are affected, and that protesting is specifically barricaded around the government district. Irrespective of the violence and damage taking place, that there is no collateral means that we can't detract from the focus of the issue.

That is very hard to believe :) and naive assertion, all reports point out to very aggressive 'protesters' that attack security forces to provoke their reaction and that whole nature of protest is changing towards violence and aggression.

This is your second post that disputes this blog but you offer no evidence to support your claims. The photos of intact shops and first hand accounts are supplies in the blog post. What is your involvement or interest? The story offered here is pretty compelling I thought.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.

The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective.

As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probably decades away from that – but I can’t see how that could possibly be a bad thing to work towards.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#47

Reading stuff like this is a wonderful way to remind me how naive and easy to manipulate people generally are.

I can't upvote this enough. People do indeed believe in revolutions, and thinks by burning stuff that wealth will be made.

3 years later (Tunisian here), we found out that it's not a revolution. The dictator might have been ousted by external agencies. While the protests are legit, the outcome is not.

This made me a new opinion: You can have power over another entity by using damage (burning, and crashing stuff). But this won't create power, let alone structure or wealth.

A good example is Libya, where the situation is moving fast into Somalia despite having large oil reserves.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#48

Stunning photography. What I see here is large scale destruction of presumably their city by it's citizens. I don't see how anything good can come out of mass hysteria and destruction. Edit... I don't believe for a moment and based on numerous other reports in the media, that assertions about peacefulness of this protest are true or represent anything but something that poster would like to be. Doesn't sound likely a…

I'm not sure why you got a downvote. Can someone explain how destruction or burning stuff can bring power or wealth?

(you can find my opinion here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7124322 )

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who do you think is being manipulated? Statements like that are useless without some elaboration.

The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.

>Bankrolled by who? EU? US? Who? And do you have any evidence?

It's naive to ask for evidence in such issues. As if they put out official statements and bank account transactions. These kind of things are exposed years or even decades after the fact.

That said, we do have evidence and hard facts for similar sponsoring of other "orange revolutions" and under-the-table deals in the past 2 decades. It's a constant presence in the history of lesser states, when the interests of superpowers collide with theirs, a practice as old as the "Voice of America".

In practice, when you see sponsored foreign "organisations" working in some place to help "bring democracy", just think "change the regime to some puppet who will do us favours". Superpowers don't do such things out of the goodness of their heart. That's why you only see them in places like Ukraine and Iraq, and not, say, Arabia or Latin America dictatorships [1]

>BTW-Do you get your news from RT?

I don't know about him, but I get "my news" from studying the political climate and being in the middle of decades of European and Eastern European history. And I'm not even Russian/Ukraine, I'm from EU.

Now, don't get me wrong, the protesters are genuinely believing that they are doing the right thing and fighting for change etc. It's just that that's a feeling that's very easy to create and manipulate in people, selling them "change" and "hope" and offering them the same shit in a different package.

Quite like people thought this Obama guy was the "Hope" that would change everything once he gets elected, only to get mostly same-old, same-old.

[1] From Wikipedia:

Activists in each of these movements were funded and trained in tactics of political organization and nonviolent resistance by a coalition of Western pollsters and professional consultants who were partly funded by a range of Western government and non-government agencies but received most of their funding from domestic sources.[nb 2][2] According to The Guardian, the foreign donors included the U.S. State Department and USAID along with the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, the International Republican Institute, the NGO Freedom House and George Soros's Open Society Institute.[34] The National Endowment for Democracy, a foundation supported by the U.S. government, has supported non-governmental democracy-building efforts in Ukraine since 1988.

Former president Leonid Kravchuk accused Russian oligarch, Boris Berezovsky, of financing Yushchenko's campaign on 14 September 2005.[36][nb 3] Yushchenko denied Berezovsky financed his election campaign.[36] Financing of election campaigns by foreign citizens is illegal in Ukraine.[37] At first Berezovsky refused to confirm or deny Kravchuk's allegations, but in November 2005 he did claim that indeed he had heavily financed the Orange Revolution.[38][nb 4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution#Involvement_o...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probabl…

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace.

Big claims need big justifications, I guess. The EU experience wasn't all that good for Greece, for example.

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