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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#101

Post by IgorPartola »

memracom wrote: post #69

Just remember that everything you read/see about Ukraine is propaganda published by someone who is trying to get you to agree with their point of view. They are careful to select their photos to not show the things that they don't want you to know about. For instance, these photos careful do not show the neo-nazi far right groups, the people with handguns, or the police being hit by flaming molotov cocktails or wound…

Bullshit. The people cannot sit down with this criminal president and discuss anything. Ones that do end up in prison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko. He is stealing from the people (http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/a-833127.html) and is actively suppressing all forms of the opposition. Apply your logic to the American revolution and see just how absurd it starts to sound. The please stop trolling.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#103

Post by IgorPartola »

hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

Gun ownership I Ukraine is pretty restrictive: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine. Given these events it is probably a good thing otherwise a lot more people would be dead now.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#104

Post by altero »

prostoalex wrote: post #76
altero wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. So France and other countries would be able to 'dump' their subsidized agricaltural product on Ukranien market. Ukraine farmers do not get subsidy, they have higher prices and would eventually bankrupt. Industry is concetrated on east and exports/imports mainly to Russia. EU would make it very hard to trade with Russia. Factories could not sell product and could not…

> For start Ukraine treaty does not handle subsidies. Article 32.1 states: "Upon entry into force of this Agreement, no Party shall maintain, introduce or reintroduce export subsidies or other measures with equivalent effect on agricultural goods destined for the territory of the other Party." And then it relegates the finer details to WTO treaties, which Ukraine already signed. > EU would make it very hard to trade…

So EU is abolishing agricultural subsidies?

EU would set import tax on stuff imported from Russia.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#105

Post by dombili »

bluekeybox wrote: post #102
[deleted] wrote: post #91

[deleted]

As someone not very familiar with the Turkish situation, would you mind sharing which specific Turkish protests you're referring to that remind you of this one? Thanks.

Sure. I was referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_protests_in_Turkey.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#106

Post by bluekeybox »

altero wrote: post #37

I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests). Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.

None of the people protesting have any illusion as to how long it would take to join EU or that it would be painless. Moreover, joining (or not joining the EU) is not even the main point of the protests. The point of the protests is preventing a Russian-controlled mafia government from taking over the country's future.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#107

Post by chmike »

IgorPartola wrote: post #103
hooande wrote: post #94

This is an amazingly low tech revolution. The primary weapons of the protestors are: smoke, flammable liquid, rocks, shields and giant slingshots. These tools could have been used in the Peloponeasian War as easily as in 2014. It really says something about the character of the revolutionaries that they are willing to fight without modern weapons or equipment. I don't know enough about the Urkaine to asses the merit…

Gun ownership I Ukraine is pretty restrictive: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ukraine . Given these events it is probably a good thing otherwise a lot more people would be dead now.

Yes but what can we expect from Putin who is obviously behind the political decision to turn their back to europe ?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#108

Post by IgorPartola »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #95
IgorPartola wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yanukovych is a criminal who should never have even bee eligible to run: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/from-prison-to-presi... He rigged an election before and got caught. He is a convicted felon and a puppet controlled by Russia. There is no reality distortion field here: he is bad for Ukraine. Remember, Ukraine does not have a separate judicial system to undo unjust laws. Therefore the people have a respo…

He was convicted as a youth when the Soviet Union was still a thing... People can change. Did he rig the election when he ousted Yushchenko and the ruling party?

They can, into political criminals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Criminal_conv... does not give a lot of detail but practically he was actually convicted of sexual assault. His occupation at 17 was assaulting women late at night by hitting them over the head and stealing their valuables, including overcoats, then leaving them bleeding in the snow.

I don't believe he rigged the second election, but he would not have to be in power to do it. Ukraine uses popular vote, and the original rigged election was simply done by falsifying voting records in a few regions where he had lots of local support.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#109

Post by jwr »

Did anyone else notice how refreshing this kind of reporting feels after being used to what the mainstream media feeds us?

This story is low-key, trying to present all aspects, trying to stay objective -- it's been a long time since I read something like this from a journalist.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#110

Post by smsm42 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #64

The reality distortion field the protesters have formed is impressive. They've completely overshadowed a few key points: - The Yanukovych government offered a power-sharing agreement with the opposition, offering Yatsenyuk the PM position and Klitschko the deputy PM job, which the opposition rejected: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-oppositions-rejects-vik... - The fascist element - one of the opposition leaders…

It doesn't matter if he was democratically elected as soon as he lost the consent of the governed. That's the difference between elections and revolutions - for the first, regular election process is enough, the second takes place when citizens lost their trust in the ability of power structures to support that process. And this loss happened in part because Yanukovich consistently escalated the situation - first by tryng to forcefully disperse initially tame and non-violent protest, second by pushing through unprecedented package of laws which violate basic rights of citizens. Of course, after that trying to buy off opposition leaders with deputy positions within existing power structures couldn't go very well.

Yanukovich obviously lost control of the situation and lost consent of his citizens, and failed as a leader of the country - having a popular protest this massive and violent in the middle of the capital and now spreading to other places is not a result of the successful leadership by any measure. He needs to go. Who would win the next elections is the question for the citizens of Ukraine, which they will decide once Yanukovich is gone.

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