Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women? • Hacker News Board

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#111

Post by mekoka » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 5:51 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #35

ppprop wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack." Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

1. Men run everything. 2. Men often don't think of women as human. 3. Women are under attack by men. I don't think these points are controversial. 1. Women are 50% of the workforce, but 4.5% of fortune 1000 CEO positions. 2. Women didn't get the right to vote in America until 50 years after black people, who were officially only partially human. 3. Is a characterization.

I saw your earlier interventions. Some of your arguments may be sound, but this one actually makes it harder to take you seriously and does a disservice to your cause. You might do better by arguing from a position that is grounded closer to reality (as in 2014 reality).

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#112

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #47

DougBTX wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that given free choice, more women would choose computer science. But there are lots of other higher status degrees to choose, so I wouldn't take that as a given.

Personally, I still think this is the most parsimonious solution to the question. Its only flaw is that it doesn't give anybody any reason to self-flagellate, or at least not much of one. People keep trying to have this discussion in the context of the 1950s, but we're in 2014, where women are, among other things, the majority of college graduates (and increasing). It is a obvious fact that in the past 20-30 years, e…

I would also agree with you on this one, even as a man, computer science was the least desirable STEM career you could choose.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#113

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 5:54 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #109

ppprop wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point I was trying to make is that in the times many of those companies were created, sexism WAS a legitimate issue, which means that most of these companies are run by men. Nowadays, it is not nearly as big an issue as it is made out to be, but that does not magically infuse the old companies with 50% women. This is why using this statistic is inherently flawed, as the companies were simply created in a differen…

I would argue that the age of the company isn't what's important, but the age of the CEO. If a 150 year-old company has a 45 year old CEO, what does the age of the company have to do with it - unless you are arguing for long lasting traditions of discrimination that are invariant for a company.

Large companies tend to have a fair amount of nepotism in the top ranking positions. You would have to control for this as well.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#114

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 5:55 PM UTC

claudius wrote: post #103

gammarator wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those are low paid, low-status jobs? Or to flip the question, if they were highly paid, what would stop men from taking them?

People not wanting men to change their kids’ diapers for one.

Everyone knows men cant be trusted around children.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#115

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 5:56 PM UTC

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #89

pessimizer wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do men dominate homelessness, or do old women and single mothers with children? I'd be interested in any links you have. also: >Women are successful in the West In what way? >more of them get college degrees, Oh, that actually is pretty good. >they live longer, Didn't they always? That's just biology, isn't it? >no law forces them to register for the military (in the U.S. at least), That's not a success of women, tha…

That's not a success of women, that's just a sexist (and common) law. Yet when was the last time you saw feminist and women's organizations actively campaigning for more females to register in the military and fight in the battlefield? Practically never, from my experience. Last time I saw it mentioned was an activist who was insisting on diluting military training to make it more accessible to women, which... is not…

>Yet when was the last time you saw feminist and women's organizations actively campaigning for more females to register in the military and fight in the battlefield?

Who cares what some strawman feminist thinks, especially since the strawman feminist didn't even support the ERA. I'm saying that characterizing this as a success of women is incoherent.

>That or they get more lenient sentencing: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/ap:10:0::NO:10:P10_ETD_SUBID:49114

Could you summarize that, rather than throwing it out there?

>I guess they would if you value short-term hacks that give specific advantages to a group over actual long-term solutions.

And what are these long-term solutions?

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#116

Post by xdd » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

The reason why this became a topic is only because technology, soft/hardware developer really make a lot of money right now.

I remember reading this in HN:" How to detect female-ism? Don't just focus on the fancy job like CEOs, Founders who made million of dollars, you also need to look at mine workers, bus drivers these dangerous jobs." ask yourself why female-ism not talk about women need to work at those fields too?

Then, if you read "revenge of the nerd" by paul graham, you will understand more.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#117

Post by onada » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 6:02 PM UTC

Feminism is not meant to only help women, at least in the last few renditions of it. It's meant to seek justice for all persons. It's a rather complicated political-social phenomenon that has seen many renditions, so I wouldn't try to simplify it further.

Anyways, I doubt women-only-initiatives only help women in the great scheme of things, as that's not how things/communities/humans work. Women-only groups and incubators are wonderful, and of course they would support the world beyond because they exist in the same world.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#118

Post by onada » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 6:06 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #4

If this is true, why are only 20% of Computer Science grads women? And the ratio has been falling since 2001.

As a woman, I've been told I was bad at math and science since I was a kid. And the funny thing is, is that I'm not bad at math and science. Quite good, really. Your comment drives down to the pits of social and cultural challenges for the past few decades. Remember, women were only allowed to compete for the same jobs as men a generation ago.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#119

Post by ps4fanboy » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 6:07 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #95

ps4fanboy wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop bringing rational and critical thinking to this debate, you obviously haven't checked your privilege or heard of the patriarchy.

This is amusing in /r/TumblrInAction, but HN is best when the discussion is slightly above the level of watching monkeys fling poo at each other.

While I agree with you I was trying in a humors way to point out that these studies contradict a lot of what this debate is about and therefore will be ignored. Which looking at all the discussion around these studies seems likely.

Re: Do Women Only Initiatives Really Help Women?

#120

Post by Tehnix » Sat, Jan 04, 2014, 6:15 PM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #58

ppprop wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women need all the help that they can get because men run everything and often don't really think of women as completely human. Women need help because they are constantly under attack." Not sure if this is troll bait, but... are you serious? Do you have anything at all to back this up?

As a guy, I wonder how one can miss this. I certainly had and have my fair share of WTF moments... at some point I even vowed to make a documentary with a hidden cam about the shit some men say about women behind their back, who act completely different to their faces, but I never got around to it. And frankly, I think some women don't really want to know. Stockholm syndrome comes to mind. So my heart jumps for joy a…

"the shit some men say about women behind their back"

or the shit men say about other men

or the shit women say about men

or the shit women say about women

... I hardly think it's inherent to men only to vent their frustrations or thoughts about a person, regardless of gender, to another person/group.

And in the case of male speaking about females, I suspect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're in general referring to sexually-undertoned comments about their appearances? I don't think anything will be able to take that away, since we are, as men, by nature (unless you're homosexual of course, but I'd say it's fair to call that a minority) attracted to women and vice verse...