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I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

theguardian.com

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Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#181

Post by jessaustin »

pc86 wrote: post #90
ihsw wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'kids' part deserves emphasis. In recent times the military has been lowering its admission standards, and as such all manner of emotionally immature and mentally unstable are being allowed in. This isn't new, but it's been on the rise. The soldiers we're sending over there aren't trained professionals, they're glorified mall-cops with sub-machine guns. The ones with special training are involved in special opera…

This true, except for the part where the US military is cutting forces[0] and it is becoming harder and harder to join[1]. It's probably easier to pretend the majority of the military is comprised of barely pubescent country bumpkins with no training past the Boy Scouts, but that's just not the case. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/us/army-to-cut-its-forces-... [1] http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/15/news/economy/m…

Well that is good news.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#182

Post by georgemcbay »

fit2rule wrote: post #140
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer drone strikes are not necessarily in the national interest. Taking the horrors of drone strikes out of context is manipulative if we don't also consider the horrors of the alternative ways of achieving military objectives.

What military objectives are your States trying to achieve by maiming and crippling Afghani children?

Self-preservation. By killing innocents, we incite more people to hate us, thus an increased need for more "defense".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

We failed to listen. Sorry, world.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#183

Post by fit2rule »

sliverstorm wrote: post #177
fit2rule wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if the resources being used to develop drones and bombs and other killing robots were instead being used to develop tools that would improve the lives of your average Afghani child. This would be a far more honorable investment than the current situation. Yes, I'm not sure I know what it would look like, but I'm pretty sure that its possible to develop the "B1 bomber" of education systems. I'm quite sure that…

This would be a far more honorable investment than the current situation. Honorable and effective are not the same. Seriously, the problem is hardly farming. The world has thousands of years of farming development, and Afghanistan has been farmed for just as long. Nor is the problem education systems. The problem is political, and I fail to see how we can drop K-12 educations on people who aren't allowed to or are un…

It is points of views such as yours which stand in the way of true peace being attained in the world.

The problem is, and always has been: education. What sort of education gets delivered to the village when the US maims half its children, kills its elders, and terrorizes its mothers?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#184

Post by rayiner »

coldtea wrote: post #161
dantheman wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What military objectives - we are not at war with any of these countries.

> Why must war be against countries? Because that's it's very definition. > The types of activities being carried out in Yemen, Pakistan, etc, if state sanctioned, would be justification for war. Activities like weddings, hospital operations and schooling? > Does the fact that Yemen and Pakistan can't police themselves internally enough to stop these activities make military retaliation unjustified? Is there anything…

War certainly isn't defined as being between nations. Think of wars involving Viking tribes, or the Barbary wars. And yes, to any given nation, people outside the nation are cheaper. Its a basic premise of human nations.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#185

Post by fit2rule »

giardini wrote: post #102
fit2rule wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the justification. We can choose not to kill people. We can choose to spend our time educating people, instead. Those who join the military, subjugate themselves to others, and stop making choices. This is a contagious disease, not some 'normality' about human existence...

Your killer is a straw man - someone who seeks to only kill more, to become the most murderous possible person (s)he can, a "Hannibal Lector" of vengeance w/o the epicurean instinct. Then you've further demonized him/her. This is paranoid idealization. But some notes: fit2rule: "when you are in the business of killing, murdering, maiming other human beings, you're no longer really part of society" Soldiering sometime…

Look around you. What is the rarest substance in all the universe? Life. Why should we remove it from the face of the Earth, if we haven't yet engaged it in conversation?

Every villager killed is a missed opportunity to educate, enlighten, and liberate - both parties.

The point is this: there isn't enough evidence to support killing, and more than sufficient evidence to support not killing. Yet, it still happens - and the reason why is, the people have not woken up to the fact that they are responsible for the actions of their State, and that they do deserve whatever comes to them when they let their State murder, maim, kill.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#186

Post by melling »

galois17 wrote: post #163
melling wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you playing the we never declared war game? We didn't declare war in Korea either. It was the Korean Conflict. Anyway, let's try not to run into the weeds playing games. It adds no value to the conversation.

USA and its allies are occupying two countries and they are fighting the local resistance. The occupied countries never threatened the offensive forces. Does it reminde you of anything similar that happened 70 years ago? And btw when was the last time that USA was in a war as a defensive force? When did the American soldiers defend their homes and their American soil?

Your stance is that we should never involve ourselves in any foreign conflict and only fight when we are domestically attacked? Please be more explicit so the discussion can be more focused. Certainly, we could move all our our soldiers in all countries back to the US. We still have troops in Korea, Japan, Germany, and many other countries.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#187

Post by jessaustin »

melling wrote: post #179
coldtea wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We used to napalm people. Lots of "wrong people" get killed in all wars. Flying in B-17's and B-52's was pretty ugly too, we just couldn't record the carnage on video. There's probably never going to be a war where innocent people aren't killed. Precision weapons probably kill fewer people but if you want a "clean" war, I don't think that's possible. I don't war a war at all. I want sovereign countries to be left t…

Do you mean like in Syria where 130,000 people have died? http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/02/us-syria-crisis-to... By some accounts, 1 in 10 killed was a child. Why don't we ever discuss this on HN? Until after the WWII, the US really didn't involve itself in much of the world's conflicts. Our tradition is to pretty much leave the world to fix its own problems. We joined WWI during the last year of the war and…

Would fewer people have died if USA hadn't interfered in Syria to the extent that we have? I.e., no constant media and political coverage, no arming the rebels, no diplomatic ante-upping games? It's impossible to be certain, but it certainly makes sense. What is indisputable is that further action on the part of USA will increase the death toll dramatically, as it has done everywhere else.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#188

Post by alan_cx »

melling wrote: post #36
ck2 wrote: post #4

The feed is so pixelated, what if it's a shovel, and not a weapon? I felt this confusion constantly, as did my fellow UAV analysts. We always wonder if we killed the right people If this question even comes up once, drones should never, ever be armed. Why is is okay to repeatedly kill the wrong person in another country? Can you imagine if that happened even just once in the USA? We need an international ban on armed…

There you go again ck2. One of your classic comments. We used to napalm people. Lots of "wrong people" get killed in all wars. Flying in B-17's and B-52's was pretty ugly too, we just couldn't record the carnage on video. There's probably never going to be a war where innocent people aren't killed. Precision weapons probably kill fewer people but if you want a "clean" war, I don't think that's possible. The real solu…

And here you go again missing the point, trying to falsely equate drones and B-52's, while arrogantly implying Americans are more valuable than foreigners.

BTW, when was the last time B52s were used to bomb weddings to kill one suspected, not convicted, terrorist? Drones are used for that, in place of human assassins, or, heaven forbid, a judicial process. Remember that? The law?

This is the difference. With drones, governments think they can get away with it. They claim it clean and use the same false equivalents you use.

Tell me, if you are to be stopped in the streets, do you want that to be by a person, or robot? In the end, that is where these cowards will end up.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#189

Post by fit2rule »

dasil003 wrote: post #101
fit2rule wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans can choose to be non-violent. This is what makes us human. The moment you remove that choice - either personally or socially - you become an animal, again. Genetic traits? Well, we've overcome them before, with our free will - we'll do it again. We had lots of genetic traits that predetermined our inability to live on the Moon - but we soon decided that wasn't going to get in our way. Why can't we do the same…

> viewpoints such as yours are contagious diseases Way to take an even-handed comment like mine stating facts with minimal value judgements and attempt to turn it into fuel for your idealogical steamroller. The only problem is you didn't really read and comprehend what I said.

The problem is, you don't realize what you are saying can be used by those who wish to murder to continue to do so. Yes, your point of view, since it is used tirelessly as a justification, is responsible for continued crimes against humanity.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#190

Post by fit2rule »

Killah911 wrote: post #58

I've worked on building some AI for drones for the US, and I'm fairly certain that advents in new technologies will mitigate most of the concerns in the article. It will make for a seriously scary new world, where devices like this exist at massive scale. Dictatorships will be even more brutal, and oppressors, even more oppressive. The sociopath in control of these machines will no longer have to worry about someone…

>Having the time to reflect on the serious inequities in the world that you've just been witness to can't easily be swept under the rug.

If there is hope, it lies in the proles.

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