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I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

theguardian.com

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Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#141

Post by dantheman »

rayiner wrote: post #133
fit2rule wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this story anything but a plea to the people to reign in their heinous military masters? You state 'we must be sure we're not being manipulated' - towards what end, exactly? The logical conclusion of this opinion piece (it is marked thus) is that we should not allow our elected representatives to get away with murder. How is that in any way a negative result?

Fewer drone strikes are not necessarily in the national interest. Taking the horrors of drone strikes out of context is manipulative if we don't also consider the horrors of the alternative ways of achieving military objectives.

What military objectives - we are not at war with any of these countries.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#142

Post by Killah911 »

ryandrake wrote: post #114
Killah911 wrote: post #58

I've worked on building some AI for drones for the US, and I'm fairly certain that advents in new technologies will mitigate most of the concerns in the article. It will make for a seriously scary new world, where devices like this exist at massive scale. Dictatorships will be even more brutal, and oppressors, even more oppressive. The sociopath in control of these machines will no longer have to worry about someone…

Just curious, you said you worked on building some of these systems, so how did you personally square your morals/ethics with the fact that your employment was probably helping to bring about this "seriously scary new world"? I took a similar job once, sold on the awesome technical challenge (aeronautical mapping, gyro/sensor input, camera control, etc). But over the time I worked there, I became more and more ethica…

That's crazy, I ended up feeling the same way. At first just the cool factor of building something like skynet blinded me. I had friends deployed in wars and I often found myself being worried and told myself that what I'm working will someday make sure that my friends' probability of coming home in a bodybag will be reduced significantly. I also told myself that my code itself was so early that it would never see any real action in any meaningful way. But eventually what I was helping to build became too much to think about.

I moved on to hacking car ecu's and making them go faster. Utterly meaningless compared to my previous job, but a good fun couple of years of what amounted in my mind to toy-building after what I'd previously worked on. You can say I joined your group as well. I can only imagine what the poor sobs in the article go through, they don't exactly have the option to join said group. Not to mention watching real people dying in near real time must have a crazy impact that I can't ever compare to my own experience.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#143

Post by Natsu »

jusben1369 wrote: post #112

We need to make sure we're not being manipulated. Here the Guardian is just serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion. I'm not sure how this is different to much of the chest beating I'd see on Fox News. I'm not here to argue for or against the drones. Just that if we pride ourselves on being educated and critical thinkers that we apply that to all sources of data we read. We all kno…

> We need to make sure we're not being manipulated.

By whom? The people telling us their experience with the program, or the people who tell us nothing about what they do for our own protection?

> The military is aware of the impact on these operators. From a February 20013 article sighting a Defense Department study: “Remotely piloted aircraft pilots may stare at the same piece of ground for days,” said Jean Lin Otto, an epidemiologist who was a co-author of the study.

Can you give more context on the quote you cite? I'm not sure how staring at the ground addresses suicide risk, as I do not believe anyone is dying of boredom here.

> War is hell. The issues are complex. Trusted new sources add to the debate.

All the more reason to listen to those who present their own direct experience with it, no?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#144

Post by AndrewKemendo »

sleepyK wrote: post #73
1457389 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to drones is counterinsurgency. For example, the wedding party in Yemen, if it were a target of actual importance, would have been captured and interrogated, with suspected insurgents detained for further questioning. The problem is that we don't have the manpower or the political latitude to do that in all these regions, so we send in killer robots instead and hope we hit the right people. This is a…

What right does America have to kill a wedding party in Yemen? Indeed, what right does America have to kill any "suspected terrorist" in Yemen? This is just another example of how the convenience of drone strikes has led to the belittling of war.

Indeed, what right does America have to kill any "suspected terrorist" in Yemen?

Mostly because the people in charge of approving that in the Yemeni government have approved it [1]

[1] http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/09/30/264233/yemens-hadi-...

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#145

Post by classicsnoot »

There are a lot of comments, so i apologize if i am parroting a wiser person, but this thought has been occupying my head for some time and i crave the sweet relief of discourse.

Drones are here to stay. Maybe like nuclear weapons, they will be something we try to eradicate later, but for now, we must accept and incorporate them, as companies/governments will make it happen regardless of our [read:citizenry(...of the world, of course)] concerns or opposition. In light of this, it is me earnest and sincere belief that control of the sky over our heads is up for grabs. Bothered by kill bots flown over your head by sme assholes in Nevada? Start building aerial jammers, yo. Think those pigs in your 'hood are corrupt? Set up video surveillance and make it open/free access online. Take pictures of cops using their mobiles whilst driving. Say nothing unnecessary at traffic stops; be happy to join them for a free ride to the station and a front row seat to how paperwork is an unbiased weapon in the hands of informed folks. I am so sick of soccer moms and military assholes telling me what is "safe", what "security" means, and how freaking precious our nation is. There is no one coming to save us, not in the US, not in Europe, and especially not in China (India... well we will see). But that is cool, because we have Internet. Seriously, in a stand up arms race, who is going to win, they people paying 100 million per drone or the people paying 1000 per drone. We dont need ordinance. We don't need permission. We have all the know how required [the OP/author sounds like a soldier of conscience if there ever was one]. This is not some Occupy circus. It is not a call for revolution or insurrection. It is just one person, trying to point out the facts...

We, as the armchair scientists and tech inclined folk of the world, have the balance of insight, experience, funding, and motivation on our side. what is more, we need not kill anyone. we dont need to blow anyone up. Most importantly, we get to be honest, and we get to work by choice.

We as people need not sit idly by while politicians and constables decide our fates and the fates of our brothers and sisters around the world. i long for a day when my country, because we kick ass, carpet bombs africa and the middle east weekly with well made books, toothpaste, and ruggedized tablet computers. I do not think this is a fantasy, but i am very aware of the other options.

...shit, this isn't the meeting at the docks...

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#146

Post by rayiner »

ck2 wrote: post #4

The feed is so pixelated, what if it's a shovel, and not a weapon? I felt this confusion constantly, as did my fellow UAV analysts. We always wonder if we killed the right people If this question even comes up once, drones should never, ever be armed. Why is is okay to repeatedly kill the wrong person in another country? Can you imagine if that happened even just once in the USA? We need an international ban on armed…

The asymmetry of people getting killed in your country versus people getting killed in enemy countries is as old as human history. The bedrock of international relations is killing people in other countries. That won't change. We won't become a world of pacifists anytime soon.

Given that, do drones make more mistakes than armed soldiers or bomb drops or cruise missiles? That's the relevant question. And there is good reason to believe they do. The drone operator may not have as good a view as a soldier, but also doesn't risk his own life on a false negative.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#148

Post by dreamfactory »

jusben1369 wrote: post #112

We need to make sure we're not being manipulated. Here the Guardian is just serving up an emotional, unsubstantiated, one sided view of this discussion. I'm not sure how this is different to much of the chest beating I'd see on Fox News. I'm not here to argue for or against the drones. Just that if we pride ourselves on being educated and critical thinkers that we apply that to all sources of data we read. We all kno…

There's no such thing as an unbiased report and you are being disingenuous here as the article is clearly a personal account. As such, it obviously wouldn't and shouldn't aim to be a broad survey on the pros and cons of the utility and ethics of various approaches. On the contrary, the aim is clearly to add new first-hand information to the public debate, which has hitherto been deliberately biased by extensive and coordinated efforts to repress that info.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#149

Post by rayiner »

dantheman wrote: post #141
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer drone strikes are not necessarily in the national interest. Taking the horrors of drone strikes out of context is manipulative if we don't also consider the horrors of the alternative ways of achieving military objectives.

What military objectives - we are not at war with any of these countries.

Why must war be against countries? The types of activities being carried out in Yemen, Pakistan, etc, if state sanctioned, would be justification for war. Does the fact that Yemen and Pakistan can't police themselves internally enough to stop these activities make military retaliation unjustified? Would you feel better if we just declared war on Yemen and Pakistan?

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#150

Post by jessaustin »

rayiner wrote: post #133
fit2rule wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this story anything but a plea to the people to reign in their heinous military masters? You state 'we must be sure we're not being manipulated' - towards what end, exactly? The logical conclusion of this opinion piece (it is marked thus) is that we should not allow our elected representatives to get away with murder. How is that in any way a negative result?

Fewer drone strikes are not necessarily in the national interest. Taking the horrors of drone strikes out of context is manipulative if we don't also consider the horrors of the alternative ways of achieving military objectives.

To hell with "military objectives", what "national interest"?
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