I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on • Hacker News Board

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#101

Post by dasil003 » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #75

dasil003 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence is a part of nature, and humans are evolved to participate in it like all animals. It only becomes evil in the context of human values, where I agree there is no reason for people to be killing each other. However the ability and taste for killing is a genetic trait that has been valuable for some individuals over time, so don't fool yourself that some people aren't genetically primed to be killers.

Humans can choose to be non-violent. This is what makes us human. The moment you remove that choice - either personally or socially - you become an animal, again. Genetic traits? Well, we've overcome them before, with our free will - we'll do it again. We had lots of genetic traits that predetermined our inability to live on the Moon - but we soon decided that wasn't going to get in our way. Why can't we do the same…

> viewpoints such as yours are contagious diseases

Way to take an even-handed comment like mine stating facts with minimal value judgements and attempt to turn it into fuel for your idealogical steamroller. The only problem is you didn't really read and comprehend what I said.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#102

Post by giardini » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #45

dreamfactory wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual argument is that such people 'occur naturally' and the army at least directs their activities outwards (it forms the distinction between grunt and officer class in the forces). I don't agree with the premise but it's a nature vs nurture question.

I don't buy the justification. We can choose not to kill people. We can choose to spend our time educating people, instead. Those who join the military, subjugate themselves to others, and stop making choices. This is a contagious disease, not some 'normality' about human existence...

Your killer is a straw man - someone who seeks to only kill more, to become the most murderous possible person (s)he can, a "Hannibal Lector" of vengeance w/o the epicurean instinct. Then you've further demonized him/her. This is paranoid idealization. But some notes:

fit2rule: "when you are in the business of killing, murdering, maiming other human beings, you're no longer really part of society"

Soldiering sometimes requires killing. So soldiers are no longer part of society? What about the executive branch of our government (which issues the orders to soldiers)?

fit2rule: "we in the 'normal' society don't have a clue what those in the 'murdering business society' really think about us"..."This is a contagious disease, not some 'normality' about human existence..."

Murderous thoughts run through the minds of people everyday. They don't usually act on them but they are there. It's part of our nature: we've always done it. Here's a famous quote:

"I am a man: I hold that nothing human is alien to me." - Terence

For a history of killing and how the responsibility has shifted from the individual to the government:

"Why They Kill: The Discoveries of a Maverick Criminologist" by Richard Rhodes.

fit2rule: "the 'official killers' really don't care about human life"

Categorical nonsense. People love their spouses, children, family and friends. Soldiers are people as are Presidents. Even psychopaths love and protect their children (usually). All will protect the ones they love from those who they fear will cause harm.

fit2rule: "if you get up in the morning with the intention of taking a human life, if ordered to do so, then you no longer belong to the human race." ..."Anyone who claims to have the right to kill others - for any reason whatsoever - should be treated by greater society as anti-human"... "anyone whose job it is to murder, maim, kill - officially, with sanction from the state - and who chooses to do this as a career is a very, very sick individual."

You're out on a limb here- this is simply a rhetorical blast. I fail to see how being a killer makes you inhuman. I don't know how you would treat someone as "anti-human" - possibly kill them?!8-\

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#103

Post by mikeash » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

opinali wrote: post #64

melling wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There you go again ck2. One of your classic comments. We used to napalm people. Lots of "wrong people" get killed in all wars. Flying in B-17's and B-52's was pretty ugly too, we just couldn't record the carnage on video. There's probably never going to be a war where innocent people aren't killed. Precision weapons probably kill fewer people but if you want a "clean" war, I don't think that's possible. The real solu…

Drones, Napalm, B-52 bombing—all weapons for cowards. The problem with remote-control war is that there's no political cost; remember that the Vietnam war didn't end because the great public bought into the hippies' peace&love ideology, it ended because the great public was receiving too many of their sons back in body bags.

I bet people used to call rifles "weapons for cowards". And before that, muskets. And cannons. Before that, I'm sure people thought bows and arrows were "for cowards". Or spears. Or just plain pointy sticks.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#104

Post by neals » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

fit2rule wrote: post #21

neals wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the innocent victims that we make today will get us on track to developing better drones with more resolution and less errors and doubt. I imagine a perfect drone without any human controller, doing it's business by AI, actually making the world a better place. [edit] lots of hate and naive comments. Fact remains that human progress has always come through sacrificing some of us for the greater good. Innocent…

What a disgusting point of view. The only thing that would make the world a better place is if the funding for death-machines was instead being used to deliver water purification plants, schools and education packages, medical supplies - to those human beings living in the 'foreign lands' who really need it. For the cost of a single Hellfire, many Afghanistan villages could've been given power, for the first time, to…

Yes. However, nobody is interested in funding these types of drones. The military has the budget to really kickstart drone development and take us to the next level.

As alwasy, the military leads the way in science with their limitless budget, funded by fear.

Peaceful spinoff project is where the benefits for everybody will come from.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#105

Post by a_olt » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

Killah911 wrote: post #58

I've worked on building some AI for drones for the US, and I'm fairly certain that advents in new technologies will mitigate most of the concerns in the article. It will make for a seriously scary new world, where devices like this exist at massive scale. Dictatorships will be even more brutal, and oppressors, even more oppressive. The sociopath in control of these machines will no longer have to worry about someone…

This article discussed one of the solutions proposed by psychologists to relieve drone pilots of the stress and guilt that comes with launching an attack: http://io9.com/psychologists-propose-horrifying-solution-to-...

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#106

Post by tgflynn » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

The common trend we see with the US government is total lack of restraint. It acts as a tyrant and a bully.

1) The government acquires drone technology. Rather than use it to kill a few known terrorists it operates massive drone programs which result in the deaths of 100's of innocent people in multiple countries.

2) The government develops advanced surveillance technology. Rather than use it on a few identified potential threats it decides to scoop up virtually all electronic communications of both its own and foreign citizens with regard for neither the letter nor the spirit of the US Bill of Rights.

3) The government enacts ridiculously heavy penalties for "crimes" whose negative impact is debatable then uses these laws and its virtually unlimited legal resources to terrorize individuals who engage in activities it doesn't like.

I would like to think that some of the better president's in this nation's history: FDR, Kennedy, etc., would have acted to reign in these abuses but in any case that isn't relevant to our current generations which seem devoid of any concept of collective well-being or spirit of disinterested public leadership.

The beast is clearly out of control.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#107

Post by neals » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

pygy_ wrote: post #23

neals wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the innocent victims that we make today will get us on track to developing better drones with more resolution and less errors and doubt. I imagine a perfect drone without any human controller, doing it's business by AI, actually making the world a better place. [edit] lots of hate and naive comments. Fact remains that human progress has always come through sacrificing some of us for the greater good. Innocent…

Tell me you were being sarcastic. Please.

I am being sarcastic, right now. Please tell me you live in a world of grown-ups where progress and sacrifice go hand in hand.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#108

Post by MoosePlissken » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:12 PM UTC

sleepyK wrote: post #66

reinhardt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this question even comes up once, drones should never, ever be armed. A little perspective could prevent such knee-jerk reactions. The ambiguity of drone targets is still miles ahead from basically blind carpet bombing a whole area that was (and still often is) the rule for the last century or so of modern warfare.

The thing is, the convenience of drones has made it much easier for countries to carry out strikes without any regard to the damage they will cause. In the past, the possibility of your soldiers dying on the ground was a huge deterrent to frivolous strikes. Today, drones conduct major strikes without paying any heed to international borders. Drones conduct missions nobody would have imagined possible a few years back…

Drones may cheapen war in the way that you describe, but that still doesn't negate the fact that they kill less innocent people than the weapons and tactics that we used to use.

You seem to argue that the expense of a war can act as a deterrent. And yet, history is filled with bloodbaths that have failed to bring an end to war as we know it. Vietnam was horrific but it didn't keep us out of Iraq. I don't think getting rid of drones and forcing people to fight mano-a-mano will help prevent war. Deterrence only seems to work when the costs are astronomically high (e.g. nuclear weapons).

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#109

Post by melling » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:12 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #91

melling wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There you go again ck2. One of your classic comments. We used to napalm people. Lots of "wrong people" get killed in all wars. Flying in B-17's and B-52's was pretty ugly too, we just couldn't record the carnage on video. There's probably never going to be a war where innocent people aren't killed. Precision weapons probably kill fewer people but if you want a "clean" war, I don't think that's possible. The real solu…

>Lots of "wrong people" get killed in all wars. What war are we in currently?!

Are you playing the we never declared war game? We didn't declare war in Korea either. It was the Korean Conflict.

Anyway, let's try not to run into the weeds playing games. It adds no value to the conversation.

Re: I worked on the US drone program. The public should know what really goes on

#110

Post by dreamfactory » Sun, Dec 29, 2013, 5:12 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #93

opinali wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drones, Napalm, B-52 bombing—all weapons for cowards. The problem with remote-control war is that there's no political cost; remember that the Vietnam war didn't end because the great public bought into the hippies' peace&love ideology, it ended because the great public was receiving too many of their sons back in body bags.

“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other guy die for his.” Patton All weapons are the weapons of cowards. It isn't fair that almost all the weapons we use in Afghanistan are superior to our enemies, and it isn't fair that they resort with IEDs and suicide bombs. If you have equal weapons then you look for superiority in numbers or tactics. Long gone are the days when "honourable" war me…

A related point is that we used to have conscription and it was much harder to get elected if you didn't have a good record of service. This meant that leaders thought much harder about going to war and there was a genuine political cost in that the masses had a better grasp on the implications.