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Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

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Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#191

Post by Peaker »

Grue3 wrote: post #188
Peaker wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe the court system works to determine innocence? Do you believe he would be guaranteed a fair trial? Do you think Manning got a fair trial? Do you believe that by taking refuge in Russia he's "propping up" their government? How? Do you believe that giving up a 6-figure salary and life to expose violations of the US constitution is an act of a coward? Are these opinions harbored by real people, or…

I believe he'd get a more fair trial than Navalny and Khodorkovsky did. This one is pretty much obvious. It is a massive PR win for Putin, looking at uninformed online comments such as yours. I believe he's paid much more by Russian intelligence services for all the secrets he has "exported". The last question doesn't even deserve a response. If you're this closeminded, you shouldn't argue on the Internet at all.

How is Russia not giving fair trials relevant? You suggested he throw himself at the american system, which we both know won't give him a fair trial but will torture him and throw him to jail for the rest of his life whether he's guilty by law or not. And yet you suggest this should be his course of action. You realize this is ridiculous right?

Everyone understands Snowden is hiding in Russia to avoid torture by the US. Everyone also knows Russia does worse than NSA things. There is no contradiction, and trying top highlight a contradiction smells of dishonesty.

You believe he's paid but you have zero evidence for it. Russia gains virtually nothing from it, Snowden can't live a normal life for the rest of his life.

Would you be content with the NSA continuing illegal oversight and building a total surveillance society?

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#192

Post by camus2 »

hooande wrote: post #87

But what has really changed? The NSA is under pressure from the public, less so from the intelligence and defense communities. If anything Snowden has caused those areas of government to close ranks even tighter. There's nothing a leader wants more than a highly visible enemy to unite his or her people. There are orders of magnitude more people who hate General Alexander now than there were two years ago. But his own…

"But what has really changed?"

Now nobody cannot say they did not know. Wether you choose to care or not is your own decision.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#193

Post by camus2 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #32
jliechti1 wrote: post #7

If the "terrorists" are following this whole story, wouldn't now be a prime time for another attack? This could have the effect of validating the NSA's activities in many Americans' eyes ("see, the NSA is unable to its job without invading our privacy") and we would see a whole new round of new laws capitalizing on Americans' fears of terrorists (which means their terrorism succeeded).

The NSA makes the lives of terrorists much harder than it would be otherwise. Terrorists undoubtedly welcome Snowden's revelations--both for revealing tactics, and for creating the possibility that the NSA will be constrained by public outrage. That doesn't imply that what Snowden did was wrong, though. We trade security for freedom in a thousand ways in American culture, and now we have a chance to debate that trade…

> The NSA makes the lives of terrorists much harder

What proof do you have that the NSA has any effect on terrorism? you may not remember but USA failed to prevent 9/11 precisely because it relied to much on technology and not enough on intelligence on the ground. You dont catch terrorists in a cave by wiretapping them.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#194

Post by walid »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #101
hooande wrote: post #87

But what has really changed? The NSA is under pressure from the public, less so from the intelligence and defense communities. If anything Snowden has caused those areas of government to close ranks even tighter. There's nothing a leader wants more than a highly visible enemy to unite his or her people. There are orders of magnitude more people who hate General Alexander now than there were two years ago. But his own…

Well IMO it's kind of silly to care about the government snooping through my data when huge corporations are the ones who actually own the fiber and can siphon all the traffic they want -- then sell it. You're basically choosing between the US government or a combination of Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, and Deutsche Telekom.

Actually that is not true. When companies do it, laws can be passed to stop such behaviour but when government does it, you have to change governance which is more difficult. Also commercial entities cannot siphon people's data under the title of security.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#195

Post by walid »

saraid216 wrote: post #175
delinka wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just me, but I need you to tie this together for me.

That was Jesus' big shtick. He defected from the "governments" to the "people". Broadening the possibility of salvation from the Jews to the Gentiles, transitioning the focus of spirituality from the Roman material world to the heavenly next. By simply sharing information. It's no different from what Snowden has done. You want to know why the US wants to crucify him? That's why. He's a messiah. Just like Obama was 5…

WOW man that was deep!

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#196

Post by walid »

john_b wrote: post #66
samstave wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weird invasive thought I keep having is if Snowden could, if at all, be a limited hang-out-OP/MISO (PsyOp) to gauge just how much the public would accept. There have been enough revelations to see that the NSA got to keep what it is in entirety; mission accomplished.

This is definitely tinfoil hat territory. Some very high level people in the intelligence community may lose their jobs or (if things go very well) face charges in the next year or two. If the whole Snowden affair is an inside job then those high level people must have been ignorant of it since they would never accept the personal risk of the shitstorm that has resulted.

Well there have been reports already about changes: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/16/us-usa-nsa-transit...

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#197

Post by notdrunkatall »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #101
hooande wrote: post #87

But what has really changed? The NSA is under pressure from the public, less so from the intelligence and defense communities. If anything Snowden has caused those areas of government to close ranks even tighter. There's nothing a leader wants more than a highly visible enemy to unite his or her people. There are orders of magnitude more people who hate General Alexander now than there were two years ago. But his own…

Well IMO it's kind of silly to care about the government snooping through my data when huge corporations are the ones who actually own the fiber and can siphon all the traffic they want -- then sell it. You're basically choosing between the US government or a combination of Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, and Deutsche Telekom.

The difference is in the number of entities which own it and what they can do with it.

AT&T, Verizon et al can't unilaterally decide that you're a terrorist and arrest you, but the government can.

The government should be the gatekeeper for what can be done with your data, but it should not be allowed to own that data itself.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#198

Post by anoncowherd »

csense wrote: post #183
CWuestefeld wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend the book "Crisis and Leviathan", by Robert Higgs. Everyone knows that government has continually grown in size and scope during this past century, but how and why has it done so? Is this growth inherent in the nature of government or because of some greater social needs, or are there other causes? In Crisis and Leviathan, Robert Higgs shows that the main reason lies in government’s responses to nat…

Yes, this is the problem -- but how can we solve it? Does the book have any insights on that?

The only way to "solve" the problem is to spread awareness of it. Political authority is the idea that a small group of people "has the right" to impose their will on everyone else.

In reality though, they obviously do not. Everyone has the exact same rights (and they don't include coercing other people), and you can't delegate rights you do not have. But the belief in political authority is the root cause of practically all problems in today's world. Once the "Authority Religion" unravels, so does mankind's enslavement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#199

Post by anoncowherd »

hooande wrote: post #87

But what has really changed? The NSA is under pressure from the public, less so from the intelligence and defense communities. If anything Snowden has caused those areas of government to close ranks even tighter. There's nothing a leader wants more than a highly visible enemy to unite his or her people. There are orders of magnitude more people who hate General Alexander now than there were two years ago. But his own…

>> But what has really changed?

Not much. The only positive change here is that people are now widely aware that they're being spied on in everything they do online, so now there's less resistance to "conspiracy theories" (ie. "reality"). On the other hand, that very same awareness serves to advance "the chilling effect", so it's unclear if it's even a net positive.

Other than that, everything keeps changing for the worse, of course. The police are increasingly militarized, secret courts keep doing their thing, and people keep losing their liberties. The only possible "solution" to this insanity is spreading awareness of the fact that governments are inherently immoral. They're based on taxation, and taxation itself is based on coercion. The way it works is that people are punished for attempting to keep their property. Does it make sense to punish you for keeping your computer? No? -Okay then, does it make sense to punish you for keeping your money? .. Well no. No it doesn't. Yet, that's exactly how taxation is forced upon everyone. If you do not pay taxes, you will be punished for attempting to keep your property. Something is wrong here.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#200

Post by anoncowherd »

acqq wrote: post #100

It's a good moment to think again about the words uttered by, at that moment, vice president Cheney on September 16, 2001: (at that time published on whitehouse.gov) http://web.archive.org/web/20011116191708/http://www.whiteho... " We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done…

>> We have to find a way to give the President the power he needs to protect us, while making sure he does not abuse that power.

Now if only he was interested in "protecting us". What you're suggesting is that we need to give a fox the power to protect the hen house, and to ensure it won't abuse that power. What do you think will happen? It's not about the president either, by the way. He's just a puppet for The Powers That Shouldn't Be.

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