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Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

m.washingtonpost.com

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Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#161

Post by pnathan »

jgg wrote: post #138
pnathan wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We trade security for freedom in a thousand ways in American culture, and now we have a chance to debate that tradeoff for digital data. This is something really important: it's not out-of-the-box obviously wrong (talk to people who aren't into civil liberties for this perspective) that our communications are monitored. But it is very important that, as US citizens, we have an understanding and a grasp of what is d…

I disagree entirely. The genius behind the the US Constitution was its acceptance of the idea that power, no matter how just, will eventually corrupt, which is why our freedoms were supposed to be rather absolute. I think there are almost no sane reasons to infringe on a basic human right in general: the burden of proof should be on the government to do it selectively, and even then it should be treated with great sc…

It's Christmas Eve, and I'm enjoying my coffee and feel rather disinclined to get into a political argument, so I'll just toss a few thoughts around without intending to respond (I'll chat via email tho'). I agree that increasing power should be treated with great scepticism (But it isn't, honestly. And that's a shame).

Point: Police power is inherently a use of force on the citizenry. The Army is the same, loooosely.

Point: Taxing, coining, patenting are all applications of force.

Point: The 5th amendment clearly lines out uses of force.

Point: The 5th amendment also includes a key phrase, "due process of law", indicating that the government is limited. The 3rd amedment supports this as well, requiring a limitation on quartering in time of war via law.

Point: Law & regulations, period, are the application of the government's use of force to ensure a smooth governing (See Hobbes for a work known in the late 1700s).

Conclusion: The US founders designed the government to have power (Unverified statement based on recollections - but split in such a way that each arm of government was naturally incented to limit the power of the other arms).

Nit: The US is a republic, not a democracy. It's regrettable that a district can't recall its representative wholly on its own. Perhaps that would restrain certain foolishness in the system...

Happy Holidays.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#162

Post by diminoten »

jliechti1 wrote: post #7

If the "terrorists" are following this whole story, wouldn't now be a prime time for another attack? This could have the effect of validating the NSA's activities in many Americans' eyes ("see, the NSA is unable to its job without invading our privacy") and we would see a whole new round of new laws capitalizing on Americans' fears of terrorists (which means their terrorism succeeded).

What makes you think the NSA has stopped doing its job?

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#163

Post by diminoten »

mladenkovacevic wrote: post #27

Jesus Christ some of the comments on that article. I wonder if there was some way to analyse what percentage of it is astro-turfing and what percentage is real red-blooded Americans just brainwashed into thinking government knows best. Americans you are lost. It's been nice knowing you.

Most Americans, and I'd wager most people in this world don't understand/care about privacy as much as is reflected on HN.

Given how pervasive surveillance is in most European countries, the only real difference between us "lost" Americans and the "found" European countries is that we didn't know it was going on.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#164

Post by sitkack »

d0ugie wrote: post #129
sitkack wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And strengthening the NSA would directly cause the further fall of the USA. The cheapest way to to attack the USA as an institution is to attack the USA in way the gives the most radical factions power in the short term.

Farther, not further, when referring to distance, even if that distance is figurative.

Wether or knot I take you're advice, it is a suite tip.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#165

Post by jabits »

ankitml wrote: post #125
hooande wrote: post #87

But what has really changed? The NSA is under pressure from the public, less so from the intelligence and defense communities. If anything Snowden has caused those areas of government to close ranks even tighter. There's nothing a leader wants more than a highly visible enemy to unite his or her people. There are orders of magnitude more people who hate General Alexander now than there were two years ago. But his own…

* But what has really changed?* I would say being aware of the problem and its scale is a massive achievement. Awareness of the nature and scale of problem is the first step towards solution.

Yes, this is really huge! People who have been in denial or assumed they would never be able to pull this off (like me) are now aware. Naivety is no longer an option.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#166

Post by jabits »

nexttimer wrote: post #119
hooande wrote: post #87

But what has really changed? The NSA is under pressure from the public, less so from the intelligence and defense communities. If anything Snowden has caused those areas of government to close ranks even tighter. There's nothing a leader wants more than a highly visible enemy to unite his or her people. There are orders of magnitude more people who hate General Alexander now than there were two years ago. But his own…

> But what has really changed? Nothing. And that seems to be his point. He's done (more than) his part. Now, if we don't like 1984, then it's now up to us to start acting.

Nonsense. Everywhere you turn, people are now aware of the issue. Whether we force long-term change is up to us. Snowden did more than his share.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#167

Post by snowwrestler »

pnathan wrote: post #161
jgg wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree entirely. The genius behind the the US Constitution was its acceptance of the idea that power, no matter how just, will eventually corrupt, which is why our freedoms were supposed to be rather absolute. I think there are almost no sane reasons to infringe on a basic human right in general: the burden of proof should be on the government to do it selectively, and even then it should be treated with great sc…

It's Christmas Eve, and I'm enjoying my coffee and feel rather disinclined to get into a political argument, so I'll just toss a few thoughts around without intending to respond (I'll chat via email tho'). I agree that increasing power should be treated with great scepticism (But it isn't, honestly. And that's a shame). Point: Police power is inherently a use of force on the citizenry. The Army is the same, loooosely…

I meant to stay out of this but this is a pet peeve: the U.S. is both a republic and a democracy. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

We're not a direct democracy, we're a representative democracy, but that is still a form of democracy.

For an example of a democracy that is not a republic, see the UK.

For an example of a republic that is not a democracy, see China.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#168

Post by moocowduckquack »

SkynetSystems wrote: post #109
eliteraspberrie wrote: post #22

The Washington Post sat on the Collateral Murder video. [1,2] The New York Times sat on the warrantless wiretapping scandal at the request of the White House. [3] CBS sat on the Abu Ghraib torture scandal at the request of the Pentagon. [4] What is the Washington Post not telling us? [1] https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/15617022129 [2] http://www.cjr.org/the_kicker/wapo_denies_allegation_it_sat.... [3] http://fai…

The Washington Post is a fucking joke. And then they wonder why people are abandoning print media in droves and turning to the internet for news.

I reckon it might be more that internet news is much cheaper. More people than ever before are reading articles from the mainstream print media, it is just that they are doing it on their websites rather than buying the print edition.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#169

Post by err4nt »

jonhohle wrote: post #160
acqq wrote: post #100

It's a good moment to think again about the words uttered by, at that moment, vice president Cheney on September 16, 2001: (at that time published on whitehouse.gov) http://web.archive.org/web/20011116191708/http://www.whiteho... " We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done…

> We need to find a way forward to make sure we can stop terrorists Why is this such a trumping goal (or even a goal at all)? It's an impossible task without singnificant imposition on everyone's lives (we're no where close to being able to stop anything, and things are already leaning too far away from the people). A disproportionate amount of time and resources are already being dedicated to "fighting" terrorism, w…

I never understood this either. Aren't heart disease and obesity much bigger killers (statistically) within US borders? What if they flipped the medical and military budgets for just ONE term, what would happen…

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#170

Post by yogo »

RexRollman wrote: post #111
MysticFear wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political change isn't fast. There is also a legal process underway as well. Both are very slow moving, but can bring a lot of changes.

Unless something happens to ramp up the fear again, like some kind of attack.

And there aren't ways to ramp up that fear? I'm not going to venture into conspiracy land here but I believe it's safe to say that there are ways to manipulate or stimulate certain means in order to accomplish goals (the ends).
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