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Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

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Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#151

Post by malandrew »

Grue3 wrote: post #124
woah wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole argument about Russia being way worse than the US, and Snowden staying there is ridiculous. He isn't staying there as some sort of celebrity endorsement for the tourism program. He's staying there because it is the only place he was able to reach in time, as Russia is one of the few countries too big to be invaded by the US military.

He's there because he's a coward with no backbone. If he is so sure of his innocence, he'd be facing the court instead of propping up a government with terrible human rights record.

First, Daniel Ellsberg on why Snowden made the right call [0].

Second, if he were being charged in the correct jurisdiction, i.e. Hawaii, where he committed his crimes, I would agree with this sentiment. But no, he's been charged with crimes in Virginia, the backyard of the intelligence community. His peers are the American people, not the intelligence community. The government had no business bringing charges against him in another jurisdiction than the one he committed the crimes in. Doing so, shows incredibly poor faith, and a clear intention to get a conviction and harsh sentence by any means necessary, even if it means subverting how our justice system is supposed to work.

[0] http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-l...

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#152

Post by malandrew »

HCIdivision17 wrote: post #81
tokenadult wrote: post #4

I wish Snowden would roll up his sleeves and start working on the same problem in Russia, where he now lives, and in China, where he stayed briefly on his way to Russia. His mission has hardly begun.

Is there a way to incubate people like Snowden? I suspect Snowden could be a spokesman or figurehead for movements in other countries, but I have a hard time thinking he could ever repeat another data dump without becoming a real spy. Could someone as public and recognizable be effective in getting inconvenient intelligence from other countries?

Doubt it, but we could incubate people like Greenwald in every country. Find someone articulate, savvy and train them in tradecraft so that people in every country have someone they can safely approach.

Citizens of many countries don't have the luxury of knowing which journalists they can approach with their leak.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#153

Post by notdonspaulding »

Fuxy wrote: post #96

You have to admire his willingness to risk everything to give the people a chance to change this broken system. He is right though the system is broken it gives too much power with too little oversight.

At the same time, this is exactly what we should expect of every American put in his position. And others were in his position before him, so you kind of have to shake your head that this wasn't disclosed sooner.

What I find admirable is the way he's gone about disclosing these documents in such a responsible and controlled manner.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#154

Post by foobarqux »

eliteraspberrie wrote: post #22

The Washington Post sat on the Collateral Murder video. [1,2] The New York Times sat on the warrantless wiretapping scandal at the request of the White House. [3] CBS sat on the Abu Ghraib torture scandal at the request of the Pentagon. [4] What is the Washington Post not telling us? [1] https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/15617022129 [2] http://www.cjr.org/the_kicker/wapo_denies_allegation_it_sat.... [3] http://fai…

I think Snowden inadvertently demonstrated the only effective way to get media to publish leaks: Send them to multiple outlets in different countries. Doing so provides publishers with both impetus and cover.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#155

Post by robterrell »

foobarqux wrote: post #154
eliteraspberrie wrote: post #22

The Washington Post sat on the Collateral Murder video. [1,2] The New York Times sat on the warrantless wiretapping scandal at the request of the White House. [3] CBS sat on the Abu Ghraib torture scandal at the request of the Pentagon. [4] What is the Washington Post not telling us? [1] https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/15617022129 [2] http://www.cjr.org/the_kicker/wapo_denies_allegation_it_sat.... [3] http://fai…

I think Snowden inadvertently demonstrated the only effective way to get media to publish leaks: Send them to multiple outlets in different countries. Doing so provides publishers with both impetus and cover.

I bet it wasn't inadvertent at all. I'm sure he saw it the same way you do.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#156

Post by mortyseinfeld »

xradionut wrote: post #142
alan_cx wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been arrested by a corporation.

Why should they arrest you when they can destroy you economically?

I'd rather be "destroyed economically" than thrown in a gulag.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#157

Post by CWuestefeld »

RexRollman wrote: post #111
MysticFear wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political change isn't fast. There is also a legal process underway as well. Both are very slow moving, but can bring a lot of changes.

Unless something happens to ramp up the fear again, like some kind of attack.

I highly recommend the book "Crisis and Leviathan", by Robert Higgs.

Everyone knows that government has continually grown in size and scope during this past century, but how and why has it done so? Is this growth inherent in the nature of government or because of some greater social needs, or are there other causes? In Crisis and Leviathan, Robert Higgs shows that the main reason lies in government’s responses to national “crises” (real or imagined), including economic upheavals (e.g., the Great Depression) and especially war (e.g., World Wars I and II, Cold War, etc.). The result is ever increasing government power which endures long after each crisis has passed, impinging on both civil and economic liberties and fostering extensive corporate welfare and pork. As government power grows, writes Higgs, it achieves a form of autonomy, making it ever more difficult to decrease its size and scope, and to resist its further efforts to increase its reach, so long as the citizenry remain uninformed of its true effects. One of the most important books ever written on the nature of government power, Crisis and Leviathan is a potent book whose message becomes more trenchant with every passing day. -- http://www.onpower.org/about.html

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#158

Post by scott_karana »

foobarqux wrote: post #154
eliteraspberrie wrote: post #22

The Washington Post sat on the Collateral Murder video. [1,2] The New York Times sat on the warrantless wiretapping scandal at the request of the White House. [3] CBS sat on the Abu Ghraib torture scandal at the request of the Pentagon. [4] What is the Washington Post not telling us? [1] https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/15617022129 [2] http://www.cjr.org/the_kicker/wapo_denies_allegation_it_sat.... [3] http://fai…

I think Snowden inadvertently demonstrated the only effective way to get media to publish leaks: Send them to multiple outlets in different countries. Doing so provides publishers with both impetus and cover.

Didn't Wikileaks do the same? I think there was a good precedent before Snowden blew the doors off the NSA.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#159

Post by CWuestefeld »

jonsleet wrote: post #131
k-mcgrady wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "You're basically choosing between the US government or a combination of Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, and Deutsche Telekom." Honestly I'd be more happy with the telecom companies doing it. They can do much less harm with any data they get.

No, a corporation will do anything to increase its profits - or more accurately, dominance of its market. Anyone that can pay will get. With an added bonus of obscurity. As an aside, when you think of corporations try not to think about the imagery they bathe you in. Think of a serial killer sidling up next to you all smiles and compliments. That would be more accurate.

I'm assuming that you work for a corporation. That corporation is made up of you, and a heap of other folks quite similar to you.

It's true that lots of corporations do unethical things, but you also should keep in mind that at its heart, it's people like you and I that are doing it. They respond to incentives like the rest of us, they (mostly) have a conscience, and generally try to do the right thing.

They're not always successful, but I don't think that your caricature is generally accurate.

Re: Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

#160

Post by jonhohle »

acqq wrote: post #100

It's a good moment to think again about the words uttered by, at that moment, vice president Cheney on September 16, 2001: (at that time published on whitehouse.gov) http://web.archive.org/web/20011116191708/http://www.whiteho... " We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We've got to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. A lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done…

> We need to find a way forward to make sure we can stop terrorists

Why is this such a trumping goal (or even a goal at all)? It's an impossible task without singnificant imposition on everyone's lives (we're no where close to being able to stop anything, and things are already leaning too far away from the people).

A disproportionate amount of time and resources are already being dedicated to "fighting" terrorism, with diminishing returns and uncountable atrocities done by our government.

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