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Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

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121–130 of 143 posts

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#121

Does anyone else get the creepy feeling that this is mgrunin posting to stroke his own ego? "That guy must have been one of our extremely high volume VIP users or something in order for something like that to have happened." That just does not sound right. And it's not the first time he's tried a sockpuppet account [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6930297

I don't really understand why I've been hearing the whole "sockpuppet" issue ever since my thread. What exactly do people think I am doing? Creating shill accounts? What is my purpose in doing so. I already had my matter solved in my thread successfully. This is my fist and only account YC.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#122
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems safe to say that the customer support person could have surely emailed the CEO if they really wanted to, according to [1] they have a total of 8 employees as of thier recent funding last week. Also, a 2-second google search shows that it is brian@coinbase.com [1] http://www.vcpost.com/articles/19649/20131212/bitcoin-focuse...

It just lends more credibility to the "this is just a mgrunin sockpuppet" hypothesis elsewhere in this thread. No way in an 8 person company, you "don't have the ability" to talk to one of them.

What are you guys talking about. This is my first and only YC account that I created yesterday. What is my reasoning behind creating a shill account? If you read my responses in my own thread, you'll see that I thanked Brian for resolving the issues the proper way.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to what you might call a "large" order, but in the case of a delay selling 0.4 BTC, the price went up dramatically for me, and there was no recourse. I received $156 on the day the price hit it's high of $1242. There is a screenshot of my transaction here: http://imgur.com/iY1btbr

I feel bad for you but worse for who ever bought these if it was internally matched(some would may also call it a dark pool)(also explained further below why this was not on an exchange), here's why: Whoever was internally matched got a benefit(alleged profit) of $339.93 on their partial fill; assuming they would have sold it immediately at the high for 216.69% ROI and let not even go into the annual compounded growt…

No. The funds were supposed to be transferred by Nov 15. On Nov 22 I asked them to cancel the transaction because I had not been paid. On the 27th I got a form email asking me to reply if I still had a problem, and I re-iterated that I wanted the transaction reversed for non-payment.

I might add, that between the time that I tried to sell and the time that I got paid, They charged me for an automatic buy order that I forgot to cancel... at $823.09/BTC

I don't know the internal mechanisms of how they operate, but I think they have acted despicably. The more deeply I look, the more amateurish everything connected with them becomes.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#124
post #112
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They buy at the price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH to deposit the coin in your account. This is simply stupid, if true. There is no way any institution trading any type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I doubt they do this. > Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to buy), then the customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is the…

Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does create a risk if the price plummets. But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price skyrockets. It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored price' that's lower than when the BTC arrives. Also, any whiff of a two-step process, where the customer reconfirms the buy-intent at funds-clearing, would put Coinbase clo…

> Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does create a risk if the price plummets.

It creates a risk either ways, it's just that different parties take ownership of the risk.

> But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price skyrockets. It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored price' that's lower than when the BTC arrives.

Actually you're complicating it more than necessary. There is no reason for coinbase to execute a market order as soon as the funds clear. They can simply let a customer make an informed decision, and decide if they want to buy at current market rate (market order) or using a limit order which will be executed internally if a customer tries to sell lower or will be filled on the exchange if the exchange reaches fills the order first.

This practice has existed for decades, whichever order is filled first simply cancels the other order.

This is also completely fair and very acceptable. Buying first waiting and waiting for the transfer to clear is not and will never be an good choice.

> Also, any whiff of a two-step process, where the customer reconfirms the buy-intent at funds-clearing, would put Coinbase closer to holding $USD balances for customers. That's something that I suspect, as a regulatory matter, they would rather not do. A single irrevocable 'buy' with delivery some time later (at either a locked-in or a floating price) is closer to the e-commerce transactional pattern they'd prefer.

I can see why this would be viewed as the only choice. Unfortunately as I have stated in another thread, when trouble from regulator begins they will get classified as akin to a financial institution anyways. When this happens they'll have more trouble due to the misrepresentation.

> Otherwise, they look more like a money-transfer/foreign-exchange/banking/daytrading outfit.

Again, I can see where you are coming from, but this doesn't mean the law will see them as anything but a money-transfer/banking/daytrading outfit as they fit the definition most of these in totality and a few (day trading) loosely. I left out foreign-exchange as this one is the only one they are safe from, until/unless BTC gets reclassified from a security(it meets SECs definition requirements) to a currency.

> Despite the last 2 weeks, BTC has had more total upswing than downswing – going over its history from $0 to $hundreds in value. So, buying early likely will have won more often than lost, for Coinbase and its customers.

On first glance this may seem like a likely observation, but it is unfortunately misguided (no offense intended). Unfortunately people give too much credence to the notion that past behavior dictates future movement and forget to compensate for lack of sample data and =/- effects of things such as spreads, volume, volatility etc.

If there is a single profound lesson I can impart about this topic it would be "buy low sell high" only works for short-selling, albeit in reverse order ("sell low buy lower") but for most traders, investors and speculators they should learn that the true lesson to remain profitable in any trade is to "buy high and sell higher". This is simply calculated using momentum previous x day momentum. Preferably between 10 to 20 days. You could use a higher number but it would be too late to enter or exit or a lower that would enter and exit too often.

I can talk endlessly on this topic and its importance in all entrepreneurial/business/trade endeavors, but I digress.

> Calling that approach 'simply stupid' and 'simply insane', without having considered the real risk and regulatory factors affecting their business is silly.

I agree with your prognosis, I do have a bias that I failed to consider. But unfortunately, if this was the only solution to avoid the paperwork, auditing and additional responsibilities that would come from acknowledging that the business practices are similar to those of a financial institution, they are unfortunately doing something pretty insane and simply stupid. There is no way this will not drive them to hurt themselves and their users.

Its just the fact that has been proven time and time again, if the US regulators decided you fit the definition of a financial institution even loosely then they will deem you and prosecute you on past transgressions accordingly.

In the eyes of regulators here "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck", no exceptions considered.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel bad for you but worse for who ever bought these if it was internally matched(some would may also call it a dark pool)(also explained further below why this was not on an exchange), here's why: Whoever was internally matched got a benefit(alleged profit) of $339.93 on their partial fill; assuming they would have sold it immediately at the high for 216.69% ROI and let not even go into the annual compounded growt…

No. The funds were supposed to be transferred by Nov 15. On Nov 22 I asked them to cancel the transaction because I had not been paid. On the 27th I got a form email asking me to reply if I still had a problem, and I re-iterated that I wanted the transaction reversed for non-payment. I might add, that between the time that I tried to sell and the time that I got paid, They charged me for an automatic buy order that I…

My previous comment was wrong[0]. I will not edit it out due to my sheer oversight to understand the current situation and to take ownership. Also I checked I'm too late edit it and leave a note about my mistake. I'd also like to apologize for CoinBase for the excessive microscopic biased scrutiny.

Unfortunately it seems like I misunderstood your earlier message. A delay in simply transferring the fund doesn't open them up for the scrutiny and criticism I demonstrated in the previous post.

If the delay in sending the wire transfer was caused due to a non-regulatory delay such as human/tech error they are at fault for the delay in the wire and at worst may by their own accord make a gesture of goodwill but are not required to, a complaint against them would result a tap on the wrist at worst and of course loss of your goodwill.

Cancelling an already executed transaction would not be considered fair.

Of course if the wire transfer was not yet initiated they could have cancelled it.

> They charged me for an automatic buy order that I forgot to cancel... at $823.09/BTC

This is one of the reasons I am against their alleged model of buying BTC before a wire transfer clears. If it was an error (not saying it was not) and you informed them in a timely manner and they did not act in a timely manner (which seems to be a trend) you don't have to pay and they are stuck with the losses if BTC went down, on the flip-side if you did not notice your error and/or report it on time, you are stuck with the losses and/or liability (hello collection agencies!).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6937475

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#126
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but then, if that's how they were managing, then they could go out of business on a strong move up. I think it's more likely that they are using a combo of reserve bitcoins plus actually buying on the market at the time you place an order. This is why, on some heavy volume days, you will see the message that Coinbase itself (not just you as a user) has reached its buy limit for the day. They buy at the price…

> They buy at the price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH to deposit the coin in your account. This is simply stupid, if true. There is no way any institution trading any type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I doubt they do this. > Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to buy), then the customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is the…

>There is no way any institution trading any type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I doubt they do this.

Your doubts don't make it any less true. Most such institutions allow you to deposit funds with them first so your purchases come from your deposits. Coinbase has opted not to allow deposits, reportedly to sidestep certain regulatory requirements. So, they use ACH. Coinbase is not an exchange or trading platform, BTW.

>Again this is based on the most likely false premise that they do buy the goods before the payment is cleared. This is simply insane.

Not sure how else you think they can allow buyers to lock in a price before the funds clear.

Think about it: if Coinbase is allowing the buyer to lock in the current market price, then using ACH to capture the buyer's money, then by definition there is risk to Coinbase, no matter how they work it out behind the scenes.

What they have tried to do is minimize their risk by verifying the customer's identity and having them link a bank account. For instant buys, they require a credit card as a backup method in the event that the ACH ultimately fails.

But, there is still risk to Coinbase, obviously.

Listen, anyone who hangs out a shingle on the Net is wide open for fraud, whether it's e-commerce, bitcoin trading, payment procesing, or otherwise. That's just part of the risk. Coinbase has calculated that it's an acceptable risk for now, which is partly mitigated by their verification process and daily buy limits. But, I would bet that part of this $25M raise will go to tackling the regulatory issues that will allow them to keep deposits on account.

>What we need to find out is, in case of a delay on large order where the price of BTC went up did they honor the original quoted rate or the current rate?

This is not a great mystery. The answer is yes. I am a customer and speak from experience. Your buy price is locked in, which can work for or against you.

You don't have any experience with Coinbase, but you're making these declarations about what they may or may not do, and acting as if we need you to dig into this great mystery to determine what's really going on.

It never ceases to amaze me how many universal experts hang out on this one lil' old site.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#127

Coinbase founder here. We'll reach out via email to discuss the details of this case with you.

can you perhaps tell us if everyone - even those with smaller amounts - will be receiving the same consideration? ie should we also be stomping our feet or is it just a matter of patience before you address smaller mistakes?

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#128
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does create a risk if the price plummets. But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price skyrockets. It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored price' that's lower than when the BTC arrives. Also, any whiff of a two-step process, where the customer reconfirms the buy-intent at funds-clearing, would put Coinbase clo…

> Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does create a risk if the price plummets. It creates a risk either ways, it's just that different parties take ownership of the risk. > But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price skyrockets. It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored price' that's lower than when the BTC arrives. Actually you're complicating…

Again, I don't know why you think you know better than Coinbase what they should or should not consider. I suppose I am a little biased against this kind of behavior. I run an online business and we occasionally have customers/others ranting about what we should or shouldn't do, as if they have any idea what goes on behind the scenes or what went into our decision-making.

I get your point and they may well have to face regulatory matters when regulation catches up with Bitcoin in general. But, for now, they seem to have some guidance as to how they need to structure their processes to sidestep current regulations and precedent. Anyone who has experience with legal issues knows that the law is often gray. So, to wade into such waters, firms must rely on precedent and their good sense to guide them. It is a calculated risk, wherein the word reasonable becomes important. Whether they should be classified as an MSB or financial institution will be a finding based on facts. They need to line up as many facts in their favor as possible and not keeping funds on deposit or allowing limit orders works in their favor. Likewise, the timing of the trades matters. If they buy and hold the commodity, then sell it immediately upon funds clearing, then it is substantively different from taking the buyer's funds first, then selling. The former is more akin to selling a commodity they own. The latter is brokering the transaction with the buyer's funds and is dangerously close to holding deposits (if only for a brief time). If you think there is no material difference, you're wrong. In fact, part of the difference is in what you've been demomizing them for: that is, the fact that Coinbase is taking on the risk in the former scenario.

So, I don't think you can make the statements you're making so definitively, nor do I think you should assume that you have thought this through more carefully than those who are running the company.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#129
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're basically telling me if I pay for a car from a dealership, and they fail to deliver, that I or a lawyer can't sic law enforcement on them. No, you are over-extrapolating what I said. Cars and BTC are not comparable. Buying a car is a business model that everyone understands. There are governmental regulations in place to track every vehicle, so claims about cars being delivered or not are easy to verify or r…

the blockchain is public evidence, and should be admissible in court.

Sure, but exactly how are you going to use the blockchain to prove to a non-technical jury that your BTC were not delivered?

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's both fraud, and unethical.

It may be unethical, I don't make that judgement, but it definitely doesn't match the legal definition of fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith_(law)
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