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Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#51

Post by yebyen »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #29
samastur wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love it if you could elaborate on this. Since most exchanges don't do anything before they received money from buyer, what would they need the money for?

The huge fluctuations in the price of BitCoin probably cause problems. Taking an order, locking the price in, and waiting a few days for the transfer gives BitCoin time to drastically change in value.

Presumably you had the opportunity to buy the coin at the price you offered when you offered it. I am a small potato with no customers. I bid on an auction a few days ago for more BTC than I had. Why?

Well, at the time, I hadn't planned to make up the difference at Coinbase, but that was my first plan. The due date of the payment would have been after the closing date of Coinbase transactions on that date. I could probably still buy more coins before they were due, if I was still winning the auction for 6BTC.

But the real plan? SatoshiDice. I'm not talking double, I had most of the BTC needed for my bid, and the difference between what I had bid and the next bidder (split the difference) was even smaller.

So, if I just need to win 0.9BTC, it's pretty easy to do that at SatoshiDice with 4.5BTC bankroll. In fact I won 0.7BTC yesterday, after someone outbid me. I could have made it up in cash at Coinbase, but then there would be no Christmas.

This however is a small auction for another speculative asset between friends. I am not a financial services company! I can't imagine the size of the spreadsheet required to predict whether Coinbase will be able to meet all of its obligations to every customer at each point in time given the possibility of price fluctuations. Certainly a harder problem than "can I maybe win 0.9 at SatoshiDice."

But certainly also, within striking distance of solvable.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#52

Post by lisper »

colanderman wrote: post #50

1. Chargeback. 2. Better Business Bureau. 3. Federal Trade Commission. 4. Lawyer/lawsuit. All of these are better options than whining on some Internet forum.

1. You can't chargeback a completed ACH withdrawal. (It is possible to revert an ACH transaction, but that generally happens only if the original transaction was unauthorized, which is not the case here. ACH/debit transactions do not have the same level of consumer protections as credit card transactions. That's why Coinbase doesn't accept credit cards.)

2. The BBB is a corporate shill.

3. Rotsa ruck.

4. Will cost more than the amount lost, and legal fees are rarely recoverable.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#53

Post by d23 »

flebron wrote: post #48
kapkapkap wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems safe to say that the customer support person could have surely emailed the CEO if they really wanted to, according to [1] they have a total of 8 employees as of thier recent funding last week. Also, a 2-second google search shows that it is brian@coinbase.com [1] http://www.vcpost.com/articles/19649/20131212/bitcoin-focuse...

It just lends more credibility to the "this is just a mgrunin sockpuppet" hypothesis elsewhere in this thread. No way in an 8 person company, you "don't have the ability" to talk to one of them.

I'm guessing it's someone just spreading FUD, for whatever reason. I don't know that it's mgrunin, but they probably just imagined the company being some monolith that is actually quite small.

That's also an incredibly unprofessional response that completely throws their company under the bus, which I have a hard time believing anyone who isn't a complete moron would do. Seems quite convenient that it fits the poster's narrative perfectly.

--

Edit: after doing a bit more digging, mcgrunin has been very respectful toward the CEO of coinbase after his mishap. So let's not go libeling people needlessly.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6933058

The rest of his comment history is the same.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#55

Post by colanderman »

lisper wrote: post #52
colanderman wrote: post #50

1. Chargeback. 2. Better Business Bureau. 3. Federal Trade Commission. 4. Lawyer/lawsuit. All of these are better options than whining on some Internet forum.

1. You can't chargeback a completed ACH withdrawal. (It is possible to revert an ACH transaction, but that generally happens only if the original transaction was unauthorized, which is not the case here. ACH/debit transactions do not have the same level of consumer protections as credit card transactions. That's why Coinbase doesn't accept credit cards.) 2. The BBB is a corporate shill. 3. Rotsa ruck. 4. Will cost mo…

2. Shill or not, I've gotten results via them on multiple occasions.

4. I don't believe this. You're basically telling me if I pay for a car from a dealership, and they fail to deliver, that I or a lawyer can't sic law enforcement on them.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#56

Post by kadabra9 »

colanderman wrote: post #50

1. Chargeback. 2. Better Business Bureau. 3. Federal Trade Commission. 4. Lawyer/lawsuit. All of these are better options than whining on some Internet forum.

I'm not disputing that these options are probably more effective the OP in terms of getting his situation made right (although I'm not sure what the BBB / FTC could do), but the point of "whining" on an internet forum is to give others a heads up about things like this happening. It's remarkable how quickly companies tend to move when their customer issues are aired out in public, and others are talking about them.

I'm closing my Coinbase account today and advising others I know to do the same or stay away.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#57

Post by colanderman »

kadabra9 wrote: post #56
colanderman wrote: post #50

1. Chargeback. 2. Better Business Bureau. 3. Federal Trade Commission. 4. Lawyer/lawsuit. All of these are better options than whining on some Internet forum.

I'm not disputing that these options are probably more effective the OP in terms of getting his situation made right (although I'm not sure what the BBB / FTC could do), but the point of "whining" on an internet forum is to give others a heads up about things like this happening. It's remarkable how quickly companies tend to move when their customer issues are aired out in public, and others are talking about them. I…

I don't disagree that one should warn others of shady businesses… but it shouldn't be the first thing you do to try to get your money back!

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#58

Post by streptomycin »

Just a fun anecdote to throw in:

I never bought through Coinbase, but I did sell some coins there recently for like $7k. They deposited the $7k in my bank account twice, and then a few days later took the extra $7k back.

So although ultimately it all worked out fine, they do seem to be ridiculously reckless in their dealings with thousands of dollars. I can't imagine my bank doing something like that. Made me very wary of dealing with Coinbase in the future.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#59

Post by lisper »

colanderman wrote: post #55
lisper wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You can't chargeback a completed ACH withdrawal. (It is possible to revert an ACH transaction, but that generally happens only if the original transaction was unauthorized, which is not the case here. ACH/debit transactions do not have the same level of consumer protections as credit card transactions. That's why Coinbase doesn't accept credit cards.) 2. The BBB is a corporate shill. 3. Rotsa ruck. 4. Will cost mo…

2. Shill or not, I've gotten results via them on multiple occasions. 4. I don't believe this. You're basically telling me if I pay for a car from a dealership, and they fail to deliver, that I or a lawyer can't sic law enforcement on them.

> You're basically telling me if I pay for a car from a dealership, and they fail to deliver, that I or a lawyer can't sic law enforcement on them.

No, you are over-extrapolating what I said. Cars and BTC are not comparable.

Buying a car is a business model that everyone understands. There are governmental regulations in place to track every vehicle, so claims about cars being delivered or not are easy to verify or refute. So if a dealership fails to deliver a car that you paid for you most likely won't even have to sue them, they'll just give you a refund, because if you did sue them there are well-established processes for determining the facts of the case, and clear rules about a dealership's obligations to deliver.

BTC is a completely different situation. There are no government regulations, no rules, no precedents. To prevail, you will have to prove in court that coinbase failed to deliver. You will have to prove this to a jury of people who barely understand how to use an iPad. How do you do this? Consider the possibility that the OP is not telling the truth, but wants to generate bad PR for coinbase in support of some ulterior motive. How could the OP prove that he's telling the truth? It's not so easy, even when you're addressing an audience that actually understands how BTC works.

Also, have you actually read the coinbase TOS? (I haven't.) Do they say that BTC purchased will be available by a certain deadline? I'd be really surprised. If no deadline is specified, none is implied. So all coinbase has to do to get the lawsuit dismissed is cough up 10BTC. If push came to shove, that is the best outcome you could hope for, and you'd still be out your legal fees.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#60

Post by bushido »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #49
Tehnix wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Bitcoin crashing can only be an advantage to them since they lock the prices when the customer buys from them. As in, they just got an order for 20 btc at $1000 pr. btc, but, since it's crashed, they only have to pay $500 pr. btc and the customer still only gets them as if they still cost $1000. Effectively leaving them with a $500 profit pr. btc.

Perhaps, but then, if that's how they were managing, then they could go out of business on a strong move up. I think it's more likely that they are using a combo of reserve bitcoins plus actually buying on the market at the time you place an order. This is why, on some heavy volume days, you will see the message that Coinbase itself (not just you as a user) has reached its buy limit for the day. They buy at the price…

> They buy at the price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH to deposit the coin in your account.

This is simply stupid, if true. There is no way any institution trading any type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I doubt they do this.

> Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to buy), then the customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is then stuck with the coin until they can fulfill someone else's order. This might be at a loss if BTC has moved down. In fact, if a user places an order and BTC moved sharply down, it is likely possible that the user could purposely liquidate the bank account so the ACH would fail. I am betting they have seen this.

Again this is based on the most likely false premise that they do buy the goods before the payment is cleared. This is simply insane.

If you're right about your bet that they have seen this, and if the do buy the BTC before payment clears that they get what they deserve. There can never be bonus points for anyone doing nonsensical things.

> they have been toying with Instant buys as well

What type of instant buys?

Instantly buying the BTC on an exchange once the payment is cleared using a market order by default unless the user specifies a max. buy rate (or a min sell rate)? This is the only way they should have been doing it.

Or is it instantly buying it when the customer shows intent to purchase before the ACH clear? This is just stupid.

> In general, they take on more risk than their customers

If this is true, they should get an award for the most ridiculous business practices of the year. Again I doubt this is true.

What we need to find out is, in case of a delay on large order where the price of BTC went up did they honor the original quoted rate or the current rate?

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