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Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

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Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tiny amount of money for a financial services company - because they need money not for expenses & salaries (as a software company), but as a pure instrument in their everyday transactions. I can easily imagine Coinbase needing ten times more working capital than that simply to function properly (i.e., not as they seem to function now).

I would love it if you could elaborate on this. Since most exchanges don't do anything before they received money from buyer, what would they need the money for?

1) The BTC market isn't that liquid (compared to, say, USD-EUR forex). If you want to buy/sell X BTC on behalf of your customers right now, you may be unable to do it quickly in that amount. So, you can't really wait until the final confirmation of 'money from buyer' and only after that start to do things - you may finalize the deal at that point, but you'll do some buying and selling before that simply in anticipation of the deal coming on. You can and should manage the open positions so that they aren't too big in any one direction, but generally you'll have to be part market-maker and have reasonable non-tiny reserves in both USD and BTC just to do your daily trades; otherwise at times you'll be unable to make deals and have to cancel/fail/postpone them which hurts your service.

2) 'When you receive money from buyer' is a tricky issue. In general, you won't get the money from the buyer when you want it and in the full amount. No matter if you accept credit cards, ACH or whatever - some of them can be reversed, some of them will be reversed, and again, noone will simply trust that you'll return the money when needed, so they'll freeze or hold some of that money for some time. Well, unless you can prove that you have so big reserves that you don't need the money anyway.

3) As you don't have any reasonable reserves/trust/credit rating, in any relations with other financial institutions (such as paying out funds) you'll be required to either cover everything upfront, generally a day before (which is expensive to you), or hold deposits/bonds/whatever as collateral (which requires the collateral); so right there you'll have to hold reserves comparable to your daily turnover. In order to get a dollar to customer on Dec 15, you'll have to give away the money some time before that.

4) The same holds if you want to integrate in any of the payment systems worldwide to receive and send money - if you want to get direct access (instead of extra price+delay by going through an intermediary), expect to put up multimillion deposits simply to ensure that noone else loses a dime in any case. The general principle is that counterparties occasionally tend to go bankrupt or act fraudulently, so everyone extends only very limited $ amount of trust. This, coincidentally, causes almost all of the payment processing time in the 'classic' banking - you can send the payment cheaply in seconds, but it takes a few days to do this in a manner that ensures that one bank doesn't lose money if another doesn't pay, either intentionally or because it's unable to.

5) The financial partnership deals you get depend on your size - the bigger you are, the safer you are perceived; the smaller you are, the more you pay for the same things. And I'm not talking about $25m-capital-small - small means a tiny local bank or 'pocket bank' of some person or company with $250m+ in assets; 25m capital means you don't even get to talk about non-standard terms for servicing your account, much less get them.

And there are other issues. It all adds up - each such item holds up some funds, so in general, you need a sizeable capital that's proportional to your total turnover; and the full turnover of USD->BTC->USD, not just your revenue.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#112
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but then, if that's how they were managing, then they could go out of business on a strong move up. I think it's more likely that they are using a combo of reserve bitcoins plus actually buying on the market at the time you place an order. This is why, on some heavy volume days, you will see the message that Coinbase itself (not just you as a user) has reached its buy limit for the day. They buy at the price…

> They buy at the price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH to deposit the coin in your account. This is simply stupid, if true. There is no way any institution trading any type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I doubt they do this. > Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to buy), then the customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is the…

Buying when the customer orders, rather than when the ACH clears, does create a risk if the price plummets.

But buying only when the funds clear creates a risk when the price skyrockets. It makes it harder to ever please customers with an 'honored price' that's lower than when the BTC arrives.

Also, any whiff of a two-step process, where the customer reconfirms the buy-intent at funds-clearing, would put Coinbase closer to holding $USD balances for customers. That's something that I suspect, as a regulatory matter, they would rather not do. A single irrevocable 'buy' with delivery some time later (at either a locked-in or a floating price) is closer to the e-commerce transactional pattern they'd prefer. (Otherwise, they look more like a money-transfer/foreign-exchange/banking/daytrading outfit.)

Despite the last 2 weeks, BTC has had more total upswing than downswing – going over its history from $0 to $hundreds in value. So, buying early likely will have won more often than lost, for Coinbase and its customers.

Calling that approach 'simply stupid' and 'simply insane', without having considered the real risk and regulatory factors affecting their business is silly.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#113
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be a short-term advantage, but it will leave them with lots and lots of disgruntled customers which is terrible in the long run if you try to start a business. IMO all of this just goes to show that the BTC ecosystem is not yet mature enough and that you should only play with amounts that are not meaningful to you when lost.

Actually, not really. Correct me if I'm wrong in the assumptions I make on Coinbases' process (I only gathered from comments since I'm not US based and therefore can't use it). If a buyer buys the 8th, they then lock the price to what it is the 8th. They first deliver the bitcoins after they have received payment, which takes a couple of days (or is ACH instant?). They will have received the payment on the 13th, give…

The question however, is what if they are inconsistent in their approach?

If Coinbase refunds in terms of USD whenever the market falls, and buys BTC whenever the market rises, then Coinbase is going to make a ton of money in any form of market volatility... and the customer is the one screwed in both cases.

The question we have for Coinbase is: can we trust their policies to be consistent?

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#114

Bitcoin news... I have no interest in Bitcoins. Is someone gaming HN ?

In this case, Coinbase is a YCombinator company. Even if you aren't interested in BTC, Coinbase and its business dealings are very much a good topic of conversation on these forums.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using MongoDB to process payments is a double facepalm fail.

I'm not an expert, but it seems risky to trust MongoDB for that. Isn't it the wrong tool for that space?

MongoDB commits are asynchronous and fail silently by default. This is in opposition to ordinary SQL databases, which are synchronous and fail noisely by default.

You can enable that behavior for MongoDB, but then you're just getting ordinary SQL-style behavior, so why were you using MongoDB in the first place?

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#118
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They buy at the price they quote you, then wait for your funds to clear ACH to deposit the coin in your account. This is simply stupid, if true. There is no way any institution trading any type of instrument, asset, commodity, security etc should ever do this. And I doubt they do this. > Coinbase has is when a customer buys (prompting Coinbase to buy), then the customer's funds don't settle via ACH. Coinbase is the…

I can't speak to what you might call a "large" order, but in the case of a delay selling 0.4 BTC, the price went up dramatically for me, and there was no recourse. I received $156 on the day the price hit it's high of $1242. There is a screenshot of my transaction here: http://imgur.com/iY1btbr

I feel bad for you but worse for who ever bought these if it was internally matched(some would may also call it a dark pool)(also explained further below why this was not on an exchange), here's why:

Whoever was internally matched got a benefit(alleged profit) of $339.93 on their partial fill; assuming they would have sold it immediately at the high for 216.69% ROI and let not even go into the annual compounded growth rate.

Though either ways if I were the other party I would have still asked for a reversal. And here's why:

Such error's can easily happen in the reverse order (like in your case) and most often happen on a larger transaction AND if I did not complain about the beneficial trade I would lose a great amount of credibility in court or arbitration for the wrongdoing.

Also Coinbase would be well within their rights to reverse the transaction if they followed due process.

But, I have serious doubt about all CoinBase practices since yesterday (when I first saw this error), and here's why:

1. Even if I was not adept or did not have experience at reading the tape (time and sales) etc, it would be very easy for me or anyone to very if a transaction occurred on any BTC exchange at around this price level as the data is freely available, also all web based charts available for this would have developed an enormous tail. Which implies just one legitimate reason, that is Internal Matching.[0]

2. Fortunately internal matching works differently than open exchanges that have a bid/ask spread which can get quite wide on BTC due to thin volumes, but remains in a 1% range for good measure lets call this a +/- 10% spread, so on this day if volumes were thin someone could have bought BTC at $1242 * 1.1 => $1366.2 or could have sold it for $1242 * 0.9 => $1117.8.

But like I said fortunately internal matching would work differently. Much like a normal exchange it would work on a first in first out basis (FIFO) so if there is one or more buyer at X price and someone decides to sell the first order would be filled. Usually X would be the current market rate +/- an acceptable slippage which is lower than the open market let call this 5%, though it should be no more that 1%). So the worst internal match would be $1242 * 1.15 for buying or $1242 * 0.85 for selling. If this pricing condition is not met coinbase themselves could be the seller(thus become an internal market maker) or the would route the order to an open exchange.

There is a near-zero possibility of the fill happening at 68.074% lower than the market rate. The only way this could have happened is if once the order was sent to the market in the form of a market order and there was zero bidders between the ask and But if it was not internally matched and did not get executed on any exchange the only somewhat legal possibility remaining is an intentional technical/code error the only other options remaining is (hint: completely unethical and/or illegal) them not doing an exchange at all aka. market making at +/- 60%+.

3. Unfortunately if this is a technical error, it most definitely must have happened to other customers too, if it did on a partial fill the sell price would be an average, hence most users would never see it and there (CBs) books would get cleared during the end-of-day reconciliation.

I will leave the speculation as to other reasons here. No reason to allege any deliberate wrong doing beyond their lack of understanding about auditing financial transactions.

Though did you get your trade reversed?

edit: bias correction (explained below)

I am big supporter and bigger moralizer with all things relating to the business practices and moral obligations of companies when dealing with the small guys. The critic in me can draw and deduct conclusions that may skip considering situations which while possible have a very very low probability of happening. But as Murphy would say, "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong". So acknowledging murphy's law its my moralizing responsibility to moralize myself and declare the point below [0]. [1] is further moralizing by me, old habits and all that.

[0] There is a remote(but worth mentioning) possibility that as I cannot truly check all exchanges where BTC is traded and cannot identify the exchange through where coinbase executes their trades there is a possibility, however remote that CoinBase could have used an obscure exchange for this transaction that had spreads as wide as +/- 68%. In that case it can/may nullify completely any observations and opinions I shared above, thus rendering my opinions incorrect, in which case I apologize.

[1]Though I would request if this is the case that CoinBase/Brian make it clear in their TOS that this is the case, so that users can make an informed decision with the knowledge that they can potentially lose value due to these extreme situations. Of course you would likely not need to legally disclose this so, not disclosing it is also fair.

Re: Sent $10,701.03 to Coinbase. Still missing bitcoins.

#119
post #18

When it takes a public outcry on HN for a company to do their job, I no longer deal with such a company. Simple as that. I don't care if you raised $25 million - if you can't treat your users fairly, you deserve neither.

The front page of HN is becoming YC BBB. It's where unhappy customers go to complain about poor service with hopes of bringing attention to their issue via votes. It's pretty scary to think what these bitcoin buyers would do if they didn't have HN.
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