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Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

channelregister.co.uk

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Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#41

Post by ams6110 »

lsc wrote: post #22
jedberg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would taking this deal imply you aren't getting paid competitively?

Because it's a layoff. Even when done right, when the company lays off people in the bottom 25%, there's still just as much work and fewer hands to do it; If you aren't cut in the first round of layoffs, you will end up working much harder than you were working before the layoffs. Usually, layoffs also imply that the company is in poor financial health. Companies in poor financial health tend to be stingy with raises…

Actually in many cases the people laid off were doing work that didn't need to be done at all. Stuff that has to get done, stuff that's adding value... you keep the people who do that.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#42

Post by cosmie »

lsc wrote: post #7
jedberg wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're exactly the kind of person they are trying to get to leave -- someone who is only in it for the money and doesn't believe in the mission.

Yup, and if you want to play mind games with your employees, and pretend like it's not a monetary relationship, then the feeling is mutual. I provide enough real value that I can get an employer who respects me enough to be honest and up-front. We aren't family. Both of us are going to break off the relationship if we see a better deal. If you want me to stick around because I think the company will be better X years…

>> Your company is going to be dramatically worse off if the people who have other options leave. If you have to let people go? you want to get rid of your bottom performers, not the top performers.

This is true, IFF your voluntary reduction process is indiscriminant in whom is approved. In the case of the Dell program, you have to "apply" for the voluntary layoff. In January they'll take all the applications and choose whom to let go. If they have no intention of reducing headcount in your group, you won't be accepted. If they do have intentions to reduce headcount in your group, but you're the best worker in the group, there's a strong chance they'll deny your application.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#43

Post by friscobob »

wsc981 wrote: post #28
RougeFemme wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, note who is explicitly excluded from the buyout: "People working in the Software Group will not be allowed to join VSP, neither will folk with vice president in their title, nor exec/ distinguished directors in engineering or employees in India or Singapore." I don't know who's included in the Software Group, but it probably includes a lot of people like those who read HN. I once worked for a company where buyo…

I wonder, does this mean software engineers are too valuable to let go so easily? Or would there be some other train of thought.

Dell Software Group is made of the many of the recent software acquisitions (Quest, KACE, Boomi, etc.)

The group includes everyone from the software engineering teams to the sales and marketing folks.

I can't speak to why they aren't eligible for the program.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#44

Post by thought_alarm »

RougeFemme wrote: post #20
lsc wrote: post #3

the first rule of employment: If someone offers you free money to leave? you take it.

Well, note who is explicitly excluded from the buyout: "People working in the Software Group will not be allowed to join VSP, neither will folk with vice president in their title, nor exec/ distinguished directors in engineering or employees in India or Singapore." I don't know who's included in the Software Group, but it probably includes a lot of people like those who read HN. I once worked for a company where buyo…

Dell has a software group?

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#45

Post by lsc »

ams6110 wrote: post #41
lsc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a layoff. Even when done right, when the company lays off people in the bottom 25%, there's still just as much work and fewer hands to do it; If you aren't cut in the first round of layoffs, you will end up working much harder than you were working before the layoffs. Usually, layoffs also imply that the company is in poor financial health. Companies in poor financial health tend to be stingy with raises…

Actually in many cases the people laid off were doing work that didn't need to be done at all. Stuff that has to get done, stuff that's adding value... you keep the people who do that.

>Actually in many cases the people laid off were doing work that didn't need to be done at all. Stuff that has to get done, stuff that's adding value... you keep the people who do that.

Unless the company is getting out of a certain business and laying off an entire department? yeah, you are going to cut off some working hands. The best you can hope for is to mostly hit people in the bottom third or bottom quarter of performance; better resolution than that is largely impossible, even for good management.

If you are 100% useless? you get fired before the layoffs. Layoffs take those perceived to be low performers, but people who aren't so bad that you want to outright fire them.

Everyone exists on a productivity continuum; few people are zeros.

That, and evaluating productivity is hard. Really, really hard, so mistakes will be made, and even good management is occasionally going to accidentally lay off someone who is very productive. And usually you get layoffs because management wasn't good. Bad management is going to make a lot of mistakes and get rid of a lot of good people.

I mean, I'm working from my experience on the ops team; going from 8 folks to 5 folks on the pager rotation is rough. Going from 2 to 1 is terrifying.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#46

Post by lsc »

bmelton wrote: post #36
lsc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because the people who are left are stupider and more desperate for a job. No, it's because by round two and three the company doesn't have as much money and isn't as concerned by the bad press that comes from layoffs without severance. You could say that people /stay/ because they are desperate for a job.

I can't bear to vote you down Luke, but you just said the exact same thing as the parent.

My reading of rayiner's comment was that the severance packages were small because the employees were desperate and stupid.

I'm suggesting that the size of the severance package is divorced from the quality of employee. The severance package has to do with how much money the company has and how concerned it is with publicity.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#47

Post by rayiner »

lsc wrote: post #46
bmelton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't bear to vote you down Luke, but you just said the exact same thing as the parent.

My reading of rayiner's comment was that the severance packages were small because the employees were desperate and stupid. I'm suggesting that the size of the severance package is divorced from the quality of employee. The severance package has to do with how much money the company has and how concerned it is with publicity.

Yeah, I read your post wrong. I read it as the size of the incentives to stay, not the severance.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#48

Post by bmelton »

lsc wrote: post #46
bmelton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't bear to vote you down Luke, but you just said the exact same thing as the parent.

My reading of rayiner's comment was that the severance packages were small because the employees were desperate and stupid. I'm suggesting that the size of the severance package is divorced from the quality of employee. The severance package has to do with how much money the company has and how concerned it is with publicity.

I think you skipped the word 'are', in the phrase 'people who are left'.

Regardless, you both appear to agree that the layoffs who pass on the earlier, more attractive offers are likely to get the least attractive severance packages.

Edit: Not it appears that Rayiner agrees that he's wrong, which makes me wrong by proxy, which is confusing, since I can't find where you two are in any disagreement.

Just pretend I'm not here, I guess.

Re: Dell tells staff: If you haven't got stomach for private era, leave

#49

Post by dredmorbius »

wsc981 wrote: post #28
RougeFemme wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, note who is explicitly excluded from the buyout: "People working in the Software Group will not be allowed to join VSP, neither will folk with vice president in their title, nor exec/ distinguished directors in engineering or employees in India or Singapore." I don't know who's included in the Software Group, but it probably includes a lot of people like those who read HN. I once worked for a company where buyo…

I wonder, does this mean software engineers are too valuable to let go so easily? Or would there be some other train of thought.

Could be that they're too valuable to pay to leave. Could be that the thought is that enough will want to leave regardless, without incentive. Paying severance generally includes some terms including non-disparagement, so not offering a sep could backfire if there's particularly juicy dirt to dish.
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