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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@stinkytaco fair point. "Goof off" was a poor choice of words. You pointed out that the work is very hard. I agree but why is that bad? I think that is one of Rowe's biggest points. Doing hard work should be glorified, it should be honorable, it should be something we admire. But American culture has made it a bad thing that should be avoided at any cost. I don't think that is a good thing in the long run.

It's bad because it cause physical damage . Virtually every long-term practitioner of a "hard work" job is damaged: back, knees, neck, hands. It's very often a career that you can't outside past 50.

A good deal of that is alleviated and managed by care at the job site and personal fitness. Growing up around construction workers, all too many of them did not take care of themselves and the debt was called in later in life. Quite sad, but largely preventable. Of course, this does not protect from non-mitigatable risks, which are non-negligable.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#162
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former electrician, I should mention that trade unions usually have their own forms of college as well, in the form of apprenticeships -- these vary from trade to trade, but at least within the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, you got access to very cheap, job-specific vocational education that combined classroom learning with on-the-job training, and graduated pay as you progress. When I was doi…

Out of curiosity, what kind of benefits (health, retirement) do your family members in the trades typically have? What sort of job stability? Are they unionized?

The direct experience that I have is, as I mentioned somewhere, a decade-and-a-half old, but I was speaking of unionized work in the electrical trade.

As far as benefits go, they were indeed very good. As has been mentioned around here, these jobs tend to be somewhat more physically demanding than the average programming / desk jockey position, and the result of that was better than average health insurance. The insurance industry everywhere has changed a lot in the past decade, so I'd recommend doing your own research.

For perspective, my cousin got Lyme disease, and didn't catch it until well after he'd been symptomatic. He was a drummer in a band, had thick, long hair, and had a tick on his scalp that went unnoticed. When he first began acting erratically, his parents chalked it up to typical teenage rebellion. He drove a car into the house and didn't realize it, ran another car into a telephone pole, and basically got to 'late-stage' symptoms before it was inspected.

He spent months in the hospital, specialists were flown in, and ultimately, he was made better -- though later in life he's developed early arthritis, which is believed to have been caused by the Lyme. All totalled though, nobody was bankrupted by the medical treatment and cost of the rather excessive care involved.

As for job stability, there are indeed periods of boom and bust. Boom periods often involve working optional overtime, which is compensated as overtime -- nobody in a union works off the clock. When I was a member, I never had a day where I missed work due to lack of employment, but I know that it does happen. I can't speak for how frequently it is from experience, but the union hall makes an effort to keep everyone as employed as they're able. In an up economy, this likely means steady work, in a down economy, I don't know.

Anyway, if you have any other questions, feel free to email me (contact in my profile), and I'll answer what questions I'm able. The (again) disclaimer is that my experience is dated, and a lot has happened since then, but as most of my family back home are tradesmen, I can ask around for answers if need be.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#163
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me any evidence that college educated people, in particular, are having trouble finding employment. These numbers look extremely favorable http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm .

Seeing as how we're talking about a relative increase in difficulty, I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from a single data point? You can see here[1] that this decade has brought on a distinct change in unemployment rates for college graduates. The last four years averaged an entire percentage point higher than the highest rate ever seen before. Since we both seem to agree that unemployment rates are a rea…

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#164
post #88

I don't buy the arguments that trade jobs are a good option. It's especially hard to swallow from a college graduate who belongs to an anti-union political party. Unless you are unwilling or unable to go to college, the numbers indicate that, on average, you will have much lower unemployment and a substantially higher lifetime income.

Do any of those numbers break out people with technical training vs those who's total education has ended at high school? How do you propose we fix things that break and build new things without any trade jobs? Given the prices that plumbers charge for example, it appears that it is both lucrative and quite needed (especially since many people today would have trouble changing a tire let alone replacing a burst pipe.…

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#165
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this going to solve anything? All this is going to do is bring in a flood of applicants to the job that has no listing of a college degree as a requirement. Then HR is going to reject a bunch of applications. At the end you are just moving the barrier to an internal portal.

What you do, however, is remove the reason job seekers go to college in the first place. There are not that many jobs that actually require a degree, other than as a superficial filtering mechanism, so you can take them out of that system. The result is that demand for college decreases, therefore the price will decrease through the properties of supply and demand, which leaves an education that returns to being affo…

> What you do, however, is remove the reason job seekers go to college in the first place. There are not that many jobs that actually require a degree, other than as a superficial filtering mechanism, so you can take them out of that system.

This is a second order effect which I am not so sure which actually happen reality. I posit that it is also likely that people move the requirements to an internal portal, everyone gets wind of such a thing, mainly when HR reps start writing that "breakthrough book" about secrets of getting your first job and everyone still keeps going to college.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#166
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as how we're talking about a relative increase in difficulty, I'm not sure what we're supposed to take away from a single data point? You can see here[1] that this decade has brought on a distinct change in unemployment rates for college graduates. The last four years averaged an entire percentage point higher than the highest rate ever seen before. Since we both seem to agree that unemployment rates are a rea…

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas. A problem that makes this particularly bad is that many now don't pay at all until you manage to become qualified as a high-skill specialist. A lot of the low-end work has been automated, which has gutted the traditional pipeline where you start with low-skill jobs and move upwards. It's not just that low-skill welding jobs (say) don't pay w…

>> If you really want to DIY a trade without a college degree, I'd recommend learning PHP or web design before I'd recommend trying to break into welding. Isn't that have the exact same 'problem', where only high-skill developers are paid $40/hour and a beginner is going to have trouble finding work and when he does it will only pay $12/hour?

As a PHP developer with just an associates degree, I can tell you that my first coding job was in fact paying $13 / hr, but roughly two years later I had enough skills to freelance at twice the rate. It has only gone up since.

I think the GP was saying that the low end welding jobs have been automated out of existence; I don't think that's the case for low-end coding jobs.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#170
post #53
post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

I kind of choked on his message of tolerance. We says we should stop talking about how we disagree, then he goes on a tirade against all the lazy, spoiled, stupid people. "We shouldn't disagree on party, but, if you don't agree with me and the GOP, you're a stupid, lazy slob!" He writes very well, but he's still spouting right-wing, pseudo-libertarian nonsense.

I read the article, I didn't see any of what you describe. Can you provide an example or two?

He is railing against the modern notion that everyone should go to college and that a degree is the only path to success. This is prevalent and I grew up being told the same thing. It's not all explicit, but when the high school -> college -> white collar career is all you are pushed toward, all that is emphasized, other paths (skilled trades namely) are implicitly marginalized. Many people my age and younger view a job such as an electrician or a tool and die maker as a failure and it is unfortunate.

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