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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

profoundlydisconnected.com

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#91

Post by derekp7 »

quaunaut wrote: post #23

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

How much does it actually cost to educate a student? A full load is about 12 or so hours a week in class (at least back when I went to community college). If a class has 40 students, and the instructor spends 2 hours outside of class for every 1 hour teaching (office hours, curriculum structure, grading), and makes 80K a year, that is 2K per student per year.

Now add in the facilities expenses (roof, walls, lights, hvac), and some labs need labs, how much should that cost? I still can't see that being more than another 2K, but I haven't run the numbers on that yet. Overall, it makes 20K a year seem outrageous.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#92

Post by booruguru »

booruguru wrote: post #8
revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

Rowe is a bit difficult to figure out. Many of the things he says are are quite sensible, but they seem to be couched in neocon notions of American exceptionalism and blame-the-poor economics. I don't know much about him except from what I say during his appearance on Real Time With Bill Maher.

My original comments were based on reading additional pages of Rowe's web site...in particular his work pledge:

http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

> 3. I believe there is no such thing as a “bad job.” I believe that all jobs are opportunities, and it’s up to me to make the best of them.

> 6. I believe that my safety is my responsibility. I understand that being in “compliance” does not necessarily mean I’m out of danger.

> 10. I believe that I am a product of my choices – not my circumstances. I will never blame anyone for my shortcomings or the challenges I face. And I will never accept the credit for something I didn’t do.

> 11. I understand the world is not fair, and I’m OK with that. I do not resent the success of others.

> 12. I believe that all people are created equal. I also believe that all people make choices. Some choose to be lazy. Some choose to sleep in. I choose to work my butt off.

*

On the surface his rhetoric seems reasonable, but there's a libertarian bent to his ideas that suggests he places the onus for success squarely on the individual rather than the individual and society at large.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#93

Post by trekky1700 »

"Only two countries have done this well: Germany and Switzerland. They’ve both maintained strong manufacturing sectors and they share a key thing: Kids go into apprentice programs at age 14 or 15. You spend a few years, depending on the skill, and you can make BMWs. And because you started young and learned from the older people, your products can’t be matched in quality. This is where it all starts."

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/11/vaclav-smil-wired/

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#94

Post by aeturnum »

eshvk wrote: post #62
Aloha wrote: post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparati…

>if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparative literature, you will end up with a good job?

This appears to be just my experience, but absolutely not. I graduated high school in 2004 and had a very strong sense of choosing between more marketable majors and majors that are less marketable but may be more personally satisfying. Everyone that I talked to: teachers, guidance staff, parents, and friends all urged me to consider (as one of many factors) what career a particular degree might lead to. I ended up getting a major in a field with jobs (CS) and a minor in an area with fewer job prospects (religious studies).

It's also worth pointing out that even degrees that are generally considered dead ends can work out quite well if you plan correctly. My friend who went into history is working on becoming a librarian (using an apprentice-like process) and his SO has been making a living doing freelance editing for a few years now. They both figured out paths that worked for them in a relatively weak jobs market.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#95

Post by whitneyrblack »

_delirium wrote: post #45
pnathan wrote: post #38

I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it. But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople. * The trades are physically hard labor edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not…

> The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas. A problem that makes this particularly bad is that many now don't pay at all until you manage to become qualified as a high-skill specialist. A lot of the low-end work has been automated, which has gutted the traditional pipeline where you start with low-skill jobs and move upwards. It's not just that low-skill welding jobs (say) don't pay w…

my classmate's mother makes $82/hr on the computer. She has been fired from work for ten months but last month her pay check was $12046 just working on the computer for a few hours. why not try this out=======> jobs25.ℭＯM

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#96

Post by krupan »

drakeandrews wrote: post #76
macinjosh wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what part of that pledge you think is non-sensical.

#2: I happen to believe that people should be entitled to education, healthcare, safety and respect. #3: There are certainly bad jobs. Jobs where the employer does not pay, abuses their workforce etc. #5: Debt you cannot afford? Sure. But sometimes debt is useful. A mortgage or a business loan for example. #6: Safety is everyone's responsibility. It's all well and good that you behave well but if Bill decides he does…

I read Mike's list and it filled me with ferver and the desire to stand up and make my life better. I read you list and it made me want to sit on my butt and mope.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#97

Post by krakensden »

Aloha wrote: post #69
eshvk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. One thing that always gets me annoyed about immigration debates is about how there exist so many jobs that Americans are "unwilling to do". Why? Why is there a stigma against certain jobs? If it is a question of a living wage, surely, those immigrants who are taking up those jobs are making a "living" with those wages.

Exactly, the question I ask when we talk about sending people back to wherever is "Who's going to pick my lettuce?" Americans don't want these jobs.

Fun story- lettuce picking used to be relatively high skilled and high paying, and the lettuce pickers were the backbone of Cesar Chavez's unionizing. This made them expensive enough that it was worth automating their jobs away. Today, a guy with an extremely fancy tractor does it.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#98

Post by al2o3cr »

"In the next few years, this company anticipates 15,000 new openings for welders and pipe-fitters in the southeast. And the head of recruitment has absolutely no idea where the workers will come from. That should scare us all."

Oh FFS. If the company can't find 15k workers perhaps they should consider raising wages. Mr. Rowe's show has clearly demonstrated that no matter how unpleasant 99% of the world might find a particular job there's somebody willing to hold their nose (or put on a gas mask, etc) and do it for the right price.

Of course that's not really what most companies mean when they say, "we can't find workers": it's usually more "we can't find people who've already been trained who'll work for below-market rates while enduring blazing heat AND total shitbags for bosses - won't somebody make these uppity workers stay here?"

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#99

Post by randomdata »

eshvk wrote: post #79
bluedino wrote: post #71

Here's maybe a simple solution: Why can't it be made illegal to list 'college degree' as a requirement for a job? Everyone knows of jobs that any moron can do, but a college degree is required. Especially for white collar jobs in large corporations, you can't make it past the first layer of HR without a degree.

How is this going to solve anything? All this is going to do is bring in a flood of applicants to the job that has no listing of a college degree as a requirement. Then HR is going to reject a bunch of applications. At the end you are just moving the barrier to an internal portal.

What you do, however, is remove the reason job seekers go to college in the first place. There are not that many jobs that actually require a degree, other than as a superficial filtering mechanism, so you can take them out of that system.

The result is that demand for college decreases, therefore the price will decrease through the properties of supply and demand, which leaves an education that returns to being affordable for those who actually care about an education.

You are right that businesses will have to find a new filtering mechanism, but it can be one that doesn't come at the cost of making education unobtainable to those who want an education.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#100

Post by randomdata »

eshvk wrote: post #62
Aloha wrote: post #43

He's spot on. We Americans focus so very very often on how we disagree rather than how we agree. If you look at both parties, they broadly agree on so many things. Instead we focus on unimportant social issues, shaving a couple percent off government spending, and so on. The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd ha…

> The educational system we have now is largely a scam, it promises that if you spend tens of thousands (or more) dollars on a 4 year degree, you'd have a good job waiting on the other side, and its largely BS. So I didn't grow up in the United States so I am not aware of what high school counsellors teach kids, but are there people really selling the idea that if you go to Podunk university and study Asian comparati…

I'm not from the USA either, and while I remember counsellors proposing community college/trades, the societal view was that you would be doomed to work in a mediocre job with mediocre pay for life with that kind of education. Worse, if you didn't attend post-secondary education at all, you'd be lucky if McDonalds would hire you to flip burgers. Only those with university educations were going to make anything of themselves.

In hindsight it was pretty ridiculous that anyone actually spread that message, having no basis in reality, but when you are not even/barely a legal adult and have spent the vast majority of your life in school, it is difficult to see what the real world is actually has in store.

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