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A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

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Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#31

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

I looked into this a bit for the University of California system, and that did indeed seem to be the issue in that case. Tuition has gone up, but less than state funding has gone down. In other words, the university is getting cheaper to operate on a per-student basis, but nonetheless getting more expensive to attend, because of a large shift in who pays (from taxpayers to students). The historical public funding levels were around $25k-$30k per student, in present-day dollars, while today the state kicks in a bit under $13k per student: http://www.kmjn.org/misc/uc_funding.txt

It's not entirely due to the increase in student population, either, although that's part of it. If you look at just the total funding column, it's gone down since the '80s, despite the state's increasing population and GDP. Someone should double-check my numbers, but last time I looked into this I remember a back-of-the-envelope calculation that California used to put ~0.3% of state GDP into the UC system, and now puts in only about 0.1%.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

Anytime I hear "we have a shortage of workers" my first thought is, "for what jobs, and at what wage/working conditions?" Usually when a person says "I have a shortage of workers" they mean "I can't find enough chumps/desperate people to work for the ridiculously low wage I want to pay."

There is also the difference between jobs and careers. For many it is not enough to have a job that pays decently. They need one that is stable. Preferably with benefits that can make future planning easy. (And, by easy, I mean possible.)

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic. HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap! You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" wh…

This is a terrible analogy; If I were a Java programmer who was unemployed, struggling to find any job at all, I would take your shitty $10/hr programming job in a heartbeat.

Of course I am not under/un-employed, so I have the luxury of telling you to take your shitty job offering and shove it. Your little scenario seems absurd to all of us because we all know that there are plenty of far better programming jobs available. We are not looking at a job shortage.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rowe is a bit difficult to figure out. Many of the things he says are are quite sensible, but they seem to be couched in neocon notions of American exceptionalism and blame-the-poor economics. I don't know much about him except from what I say during his appearance on Real Time With Bill Maher.

In what part of the linked exchange did he 'blame the poor'? There are many causes of poverty and I don't think lack of hard work is a big one. However when it comes to young people deciding how they will make their way in the world I think a lot choose to go into debt for a four year degree that won't help them in the real world. That is not a wise decision and so we should encourage those people to make better deci…

For a few of us, it reads as him basically blaming them for not taking the jobs he references time and again.

Maybe that is unfair, but it does echo in the rhetoric to me.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#35

> Think about it. Universities get to decide how much money to charge their students. Likewise, parents and students decide if they can afford to pay it. It’s a pretty simple proposition. But when the government suddenly makes hundreds of billions of dollars in student loans readily available — under the popular (and voter-friendly) theory that “everyone should go to college” — we see an unintended consequence. Well…

Also, because the US has an increasingly unequal income distribution, that makes a college degree relatively more valuable. In addition to the social-status factor it certainly still seems to pay off despite the increased tuition ( http://priceonomics.com/is-college-worth-it/ ). My point is simply that maybe college costs so much more now because it's just worth it. It used to be that you could still do alright witho…

His whole point at the end is that there are millions of well paying benefitted jobs that are available without a college education.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#36

Why doesn't he have these jobs listed on his website? I have 2 friends who are unemployed one with a newborn who would be more then interested in those welding jobs he mentions. Does anyone have more information? Do you have to own your own gear? How much is school? Is there a lot of travel?

Try emailing him. I bet a few HNers could throw something together by next weekend.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#38
I hadn't heard about Mike Rowe until he started his program to popularize the trades. It's an interesting perspective, and I don't really have a beef about it.

But let me make a few factual points, borne out of my experience and the experience I have in growing up around tradespeople and being related to tradespeople.

* The trades are physically hard labor

edit: It might not be clear what this entails, as perhaps not everyone reading has performed it. It entails working 40-50 hours per week, in nearly all possible weather (for outside jobs), where you must maintain (in addition to the work itself) a personal fitness regimen not to be injured through strain. In the pursuit of this work, you will probably find yourself moving objects up to perhaps several hundred pounds, with possibly zero help. You will almost certainly be on your feet (or knees) all day except for breaks.

* The trades expose you to non-negligable levels of risk of injury on a daily basis.

edit: A few examples, taken from real life experiences. Falling off the roof of a house and breaking vertebrae - lifelong medication after that. Wearing out knee mechanisms due to going up and stairs with 50+ pounds in your hands daily for many years - lifelong care required. Heavy object falling onto shop floor within inches feet - would have chopped feet off or required cutting off the boots if the steel toes had held. Other examples readily available from medical professionals and friends in the trades. These risks are systemic in the trades by and large.

* The trades do not pay well until/unless you specialize into certain areas.

Let me clarify a bit on what I mean by paying well. I mean, bluntly, that trades frequently pay in (current US dollars) between 12 and 25 dollars per hour; frequently without benefits and (due to seasonal demand and project-based nature of the work) frequent lack of steady employment. Mike Rowe cited a welder's experience as a counterexample of my thesis. The fact that supply & demand makes certain skilled trades very valuable does not obviate the reality of the poor pay endemic to the field, paticularly for the semi-skilled and unskilled areas.

All that being said, it's been documented in both popular culture and research that self-centeredness is on the rise; it's getting to be well understood that many modern Americans simply don't want to work hard in unpleasant conditions (Mike Rowe cited an example of people who quit training programs en masse in the SE US because of the heat). This has been borne out anecdotally by the number of immigrants doing these same hard work in unpleasant conditions while native-born "modern Americans" moan about being unable to find work.

That doesn't meant that it's a particularly pleasant experience to find out that "pursue your passion" means very little in the broader job market, after you've pursued your financially negative ROI degree (with the utmost support of your parents, friends, and other authority figures). And that's something that I think should be brought out of this debate: don't ruin your life in the pursuit of a dream - be responsible with your dreaming; fulfil your duties and calculate your risks.

edit:

I don't have a real conclusion here. But I think it's reasonable to evaluate the risk/reward payoff for the trades and seek higher education as an alternative.

I suppose a more knowledgable observer could draw some interesting connections between what unionization provides and what higher education degree jobs provide and infer some interesting conclusions. I can't guess as to what those conclusions are. I'd like to read some discussion on that topic sometime.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic. HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap! You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" wh…

That argument is a bit disingenuous if you ask me. A company that legitimately needs worker would be forced to raise their offered wages until they can find employees or would be forced to go out of business. I think the problem is that society has told young people that if they have a 4-year degree they should be making mid to high wages right out of school just because they have a degree. In the real world employer…

@stinkytaco fair point. "Goof off" was a poor choice of words.

You pointed out that the work is very hard. I agree but why is that bad? I think that is one of Rowe's biggest points. Doing hard work should be glorified, it should be honorable, it should be something we admire. But American culture has made it a bad thing that should be avoided at any cost. I don't think that is a good thing in the long run.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#40
post #12

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

I don't think you know what a neoconservative is. Neoconservativism is about foreign policy, and, to the extent it engages with domestic policy and the economy at all, it has centrist tendencies; "neocon" is a label originally applied pejoratively to academic liberals who shifted to the right during the cold war regarding the US's role in the world. Your dismissal of Rowe's post as "nonsense" would be more compelling…

Do you think citing the definition of it from some dictionary is of any relevance to their popular use?

It seems you are as happy to quickly dismiss something on inane reasons as I am :)

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