A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe • Hacker News Board

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#11

Post by ryandrake » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:13 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #7

mooreds wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to hear Mike Rowe's reply to this. His answers had plenty of anecdotes, as did this article. My question is, where's the data?

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic.

HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap!

You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" when college educated workers instead choose to go sell shoes at the mall.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#12

Post by tptacek » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:15 PM UTC

revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

I don't think you know what a neoconservative is. Neoconservativism is about foreign policy, and, to the extent it engages with domestic policy and the economy at all, it has centrist tendencies; "neocon" is a label originally applied pejoratively to academic liberals who shifted to the right during the cold war regarding the US's role in the world.

Your dismissal of Rowe's post as "nonsense" would be more compelling if it was accompanied by words you actually understood.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#13

Post by bdcravens » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:15 PM UTC

revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

#1 and #2 are a bit conservative and nationalistic, but I see nothing wrong with the rest.

Basically the summary: "I love America, and am lucky to live here. I'm going to work hard, because hard work is the path to success. Lazy people suck." OMG! Tea bagger!

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#14

Post by macinjosh » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:15 PM UTC

booruguru wrote: post #8

revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

Rowe is a bit difficult to figure out. Many of the things he says are are quite sensible, but they seem to be couched in neocon notions of American exceptionalism and blame-the-poor economics. I don't know much about him except from what I say during his appearance on Real Time With Bill Maher.

In what part of the linked exchange did he 'blame the poor'?

There are many causes of poverty and I don't think lack of hard work is a big one. However when it comes to young people deciding how they will make their way in the world I think a lot choose to go into debt for a four year degree that won't help them in the real world. That is not a wise decision and so we should encourage those people to make better decisions even if they don't get their dream job right out of the gate at least they would be employable.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#15

Post by tptacek » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:19 PM UTC

booruguru wrote: post #8

revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

Rowe is a bit difficult to figure out. Many of the things he says are are quite sensible, but they seem to be couched in neocon notions of American exceptionalism and blame-the-poor economics. I don't know much about him except from what I say during his appearance on Real Time With Bill Maher.

"American exceptionalism" is indeed a notion of neoconservativism. Unfortunately for your comment, it is entirely absent from the post we're commenting on. Perhaps you can find some other source to back your assertion up? Let's be clear on what "exceptionalism" means: it does not mean that the writer believes America to be a great country, because most writers believe their countries to be great; some even believe many countries to be great simultaneously! Exceptionalism means an argument that America is so great that it should function by different rules than all other countries. My bet is that you're going to have a hard time finding Rowe saying anything like that, because he doesn't write about foreign policy.

Meanwhile, "blame-the-poor economics" are indeed an (unfortunate) notion of right-wing conservatism. But unfortunately for your comment, (a) nowhere in this post does Rowe blame the poor for anything, and (b) the "neo" in "neocon" alludes to the fact that neocons do not in fact hew to the domestic policy notions of right-wing conservatives.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#16

Post by tptacek » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:20 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #13

revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

#1 and #2 are a bit conservative and nationalistic, but I see nothing wrong with the rest. Basically the summary: "I love America, and am lucky to live here. I'm going to work hard, because hard work is the path to success. Lazy people suck." OMG! Tea bagger!

Where do you see Rowe singling anyone out as "lazy"?

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#17

Post by mooreds » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:21 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #7

mooreds wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to hear Mike Rowe's reply to this. His answers had plenty of anecdotes, as did this article. My question is, where's the data?

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

Are these the us labor stats that you are referring to? http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag23.htm. Because, if so, it seems they paint a more nuanced picture than either side (shocker!). There are plenty of openings (113k), but the median pay is in the 40k/year range, not 55k starting mentioned. The unemployment rate is also higher than the national average.

Not a bad career, but hardly the land of milk and honey.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#18

Post by bcoates » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:22 PM UTC

revelation wrote: post #3

Neocon nonsense. But this just takes the cake: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/skill-work-ethic-arent-tab...

Prescriptive, not descriptive.

If you actually believed that stuff to be true about the world you'd be factually incorrect, but the guy who embraces work with that attitude will do better and be happier than the guy who doesn't. Political and economic awareness and a work ethic aren't incompatible.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#19

Post by kareemm » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #11

protomyth wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

"Number of available jobs" is a meaningless statistic. HN-ready example: I'd like to do a web start-up, if only I could find skilled engineers. I'm willing to pay 100 experienced, skilled Java programmers $10/hr to build the site. What? No takers? Not one?? Well, there you go! 100 jobs unfilled. Skills gap! You can't offer poverty-level wages for skilled jobs, then complain that "we don't have the skilled workers" wh…

Rowe addresses this in his article. He describes many of the available jobs as being well above minimum wage. Granted it's anecdotal data, but in the absence of better data, number of available jobs seems to be the best way to determine whether there's a skills gap.

Re: A CNN Viewer Has Questions for Mike Rowe

#20

Post by Iftheshoefits » Sat, Dec 07, 2013, 6:25 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #7

mooreds wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to hear Mike Rowe's reply to this. His answers had plenty of anecdotes, as did this article. My question is, where's the data?

He mentions the data several times, go look at the US Labor stats. Infrastructure jobs are open and we don't have the skilled workers to fill them. ND is importing welders from Canada while road work on the eastern side of the state gets delayed. ND has stats on that too. Some jobs cannot be outsourced. [edit: skilled workers are need more in infrastructure / construction then factories]

Anytime I hear "we have a shortage of workers" my first thought is, "for what jobs, and at what wage/working conditions?"

Usually when a person says "I have a shortage of workers" they mean "I can't find enough chumps/desperate people to work for the ridiculously low wage I want to pay."