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Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

theguardian.com

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Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#81

Post by ChuckMcM »

I see this as a difficult to fake signal that China's economic growth is more real than some folks in the West would like to believe. It is similar to the challenges faced by industrial cities in the West as they exploited the massive production capacities created during WW II. Generally the reasoning goes, high pollution from lots of power plants / factories is a function of production of those power plants / factories.

You can fake GDP numbers but its not as straight forward to fake this sort of environment.

That said, it would be unfortunate if China doesn't get their act in gear soon and start putting scrubbers on plants and cleaning up their act here.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#82

Post by seanmcdirmid »

rollo_tommasi wrote: post #58
Nav_Panel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: apparently my post below was predicated on a false assumption, please disregard. That's Beijing, not Shanghai, and I think we can assume that Beijing is at least slightly cleaner than Shanghai, if not by much. According this article[0], Shanghai's level reached 602.5, which, when compared to the data on the graph you linked, is about 75 points higher than Beijing. [0]: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireSt…

Beijing is generally worse more often, partly because they get hit by dust carried from the increasingly large Gobi Desert in addition to all the man-made pollution.

Not really. Beijing definitely get dust, but the real problem is that Beijing is trapped in a bowl and gets some wicked inversions. And to think I could see the summer palace from my office just yesterday.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#83

Post by petermcd »

mratzloff wrote: post #76
petermcd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair question. My impression here in Beijing is that people are highly dissatisfied with the pollution situation. They don't want lung cancer and they don't want their kids breathing this crap. That being said, the government is taking steps to address the issue. Specifically, due to an outcry on Weibo last year about having to get PM2.5 numbers from the US embassy's twitter feed and iPhone app (twitter is blocked, b…

I think I accidentally down voted this great post, sorry! Wish I could change it like on Stack Overflow.

No problem. We're all friends here ;)

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#84

Post by makmanalp »

da02 wrote: post #41
davepage wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1000! Crazy laowai. As a data point, my current F visa is 2 years, multi-entry, 90 days and cost the nominal fee plus about $100 for the visa company to drop it off at the consulate. Apparently, the F visa has been re-purposed and there is a new M business visa. Any practical experience with that? [of course, China habitually hassles journalists (Bloomberg) over visas]

What's the name (or link) of the visa company?

Also curious ...

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#85

Post by matthewrudy »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #20
matthewrudy wrote: post #10

I love China but pollution, the great firewall, and visa complications make it less attractive as somewhere to live.

Speaking as someone who lives in China... The firewall won't bother you (assuming you wish to get around it); it's there for the masses. Any idiot with a US citizenship can get a tourist visa, lasting a year and having only the requirement "visit Hong Kong (or any other non-China location) every three months" (I was unambitious, and got a two-month one). Someone of my acquaintance says he paid a visa-help company $10…

I lived in Hong Kong 2010 to 2013, but actually ended up living in Shenzhen for most of 2011. 18 pages of my passport are taken up with visas and stamps from the mainland (plus several more from HK and Taiwan)

As a Hong Kong resident I had a 6 month visa and then a 1 year China visa. Notably, though, both times it was a 30 day maximum stay, and as a UK citizen they still always just give me 30 days per entry.

I know all about the sneaky 1 year business visa I could get. (there's some guy who sits in a hotel in TST and sorts it out for you)

But I still frequently hear stories of people who've been living there for a year or so, but when it comes to renewing they turn up in HK, apply for a new visa, and end up being granted just 15 days.

Usually they fix this, and pay someone a few thousand dollars, and they get another one year visa. But this is a hassle.

The internet thing is easily overcome with a vpn, but it's just annoying, especially as latency to western services is already pretty high.

So my choice, is "go live in Taiwan", China without some of the hassle.

Notably when I say "I love China", I frequently mean "I love Greater China".

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#86

Post by veidr »

babesh wrote: post #36
dylandrop wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the problem is that there's a bit of a cultural difference between Americans circa-Industrial Revolution, and the Chinese now. So saying that the Chinese will stand up and protest isn't necessarily true. I don't want to speak for all Chinese, but from what I've read -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that there is more of a culture of deference to authority in China. Compare this to Americans, who have a…

My impression is that it has to do with Tiananmen Square (been there, tried that, didn't work) and being complicit in trading off economic advancement for maintaining Communist party rule. Also many government officials directly benefit from economic advancement via bribery/corruption.

> being complicit in trading off economic advancement for maintaining Communist party rule.

I think 'complicit' might be an overstatement here; it's not like you can just go vote for the Democrats in China right?

I really doubt Barack Obama would be the American president today if the real penalties for advocating for the replacement of the Republican Party regime of 2000 had included death, life in a torture camp, similar things for your family, etc.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#87

Post by tonyplee »

jkimmel wrote: post #12

Is there a level of public outcry regarding the pollution? I realize that criticism may be somewhat muted given the nature of the PRC government, but I can't imagine a city as large and cosmopolitan as Shanghai merely accepting this level of environmental mismanagement. Unfortunately, articles regarding Beijing/Shanghai pollution usually fail to mention public sentiment above the level of brief individual anecdote ("…

80% of my classmates are in China. There are constant messages about PM level in Shanghai, Beijing in all my classmates' social networks in wechat, renren.

Not yet an outcry, definitively discussions, humors, etc.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#88

Post by bigdubs »

nabla9 wrote: post #57
deletes wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for one, that smog in London lasted a week, compared to Shanghai where it is persistent and getting worse.

London suffered from bad smogs almost century before they did anything to them. Great Smog was just one incident.

Hence the term "London Fog" which was not water.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#89

Post by seanmcdirmid »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #49
davepage wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If cost is a primary concern, the kids can go to local school (just like Chinese kids who come to the US). The expat continuum goes from 'bubble' to 'going native'. Bubble is most expensive. Might as well stay home, no?

They can? Even local chinese kids without 户口 can't go to local schools, to hear them tell it. That was one of the primary reasons students came to the school where I worked in 2010-11.

You'll have to pay some bribes but its possible. Generally, expats with kids have packages that include private schooling. Expats without packages usually have to leave when they get kids, though that's probably for the better with this air (the better private schools have huge bubbles, by the way....)

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#90

Post by poutine »

Sharlin wrote: post #16

I wonder how this compares to the worst smogs experienced in London and elsewhere before the West got its act together with regard to particulate pollution. Apparently the Great Smog of 1952 killed on the order of 10000 people in just a few days. I'm not sure many young people nowadays realize how horrible the situation was just half a century ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952

The difference with China is that much of the entire country is covered by a blanket of smog & dust. Not just the cities, but much of the countryside as well for hundreds of km. China does things big in a way that's hard to grasp without visiting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2478300/Pictu...

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