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Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

theguardian.com

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Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#21

Post by dylandrop »

jkimmel wrote: post #12

Is there a level of public outcry regarding the pollution? I realize that criticism may be somewhat muted given the nature of the PRC government, but I can't imagine a city as large and cosmopolitan as Shanghai merely accepting this level of environmental mismanagement. Unfortunately, articles regarding Beijing/Shanghai pollution usually fail to mention public sentiment above the level of brief individual anecdote ("…

I mean, the problem is that there's a bit of a cultural difference between Americans circa-Industrial Revolution, and the Chinese now. So saying that the Chinese will stand up and protest isn't necessarily true. I don't want to speak for all Chinese, but from what I've read -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that there is more of a culture of deference to authority in China. Compare this to Americans, who have a history and pride in rebelling against authority. Now, you might point to China's communist revolution, but realize that with this government came the need for them to propagandize and popularize a love and respect for the government in control, much more so than in the U.S. So back to my original point, protest culture isn't as much of a thing there as it is here, because there's more of a sense of working for the collective good (economic growth of China).

So I'm hoping that there will by outcry, but I think it is unfortunately less likely than it would be in the U.S. due to Chinese culture. I'd also like to here some local insight as well, and I hope I'm proved wrong because it would be awesome if there was a public outcry.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#23

Post by morkbot »

JonFish85 wrote: post #6

What? But China ratified the Kyoto protocol and pledged to reduce their pollution. This can't be true! It's almost as if the country completely disregarded the treaty to grow their economy at any expense.

It's not that they don't do anything about it.

In 2012 they emission of carbon dioxide raised by 3%, but that increase was at least lower than in previous years, where it oscillated around 10% (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24742770)

29 of 71 nuclear reactors that under currently under construction are being built in China (http://world-nuclear.org/info/Facts-and-Figures/World-Nuclea...), they also have similar numbers for hydropower (see the previous link).

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#24

Post by davepage »

matthewrudy wrote: post #11
biesnecker wrote: post #3

Sad. I love -- _love_ -- that city, but I could never live there again, not breathing that.

and the price of international schools for your kids, right?

If cost is a primary concern, the kids can go to local school (just like Chinese kids who come to the US). The expat continuum goes from 'bubble' to 'going native'. Bubble is most expensive. Might as well stay home, no?

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#25

Post by johnzim »

I grew up in Hong Kong. It didn't have the cleanest air in the world but I lived in relative good health. After I left for university I heard things were getting worse and worse although I remained sceptical.

When I returned for work, the air was nowhere near as bad as it is on the mainland now but I simply couldn't survive it. Every day my lungs constricted within minutes (I have asthma.) I realised I could never return to live in my home city as I had intended to.

I was not angered by the existence of the pollution. Things change and China grows on the mainland. What I was angered by was the fact that after the handover, the government was so cowed by their new CCP masters that they wouldn't even tell the truth about the air pollution. You will never hear an HK official admit that the pollution comes from China, yet every single adult citizen who grew up in the city remembers what life was like 15-20 years ago.

China ostensibly has anti-pollution laws. The CCP's colossal corruption keeps them from ever being enforced and entire cities, my hometown amongst them, are now literally poisonous to live in.

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#26

Post by Nav_Panel »

tcas wrote: post #15
nicholassmith wrote: post #8

I know someone over in China at the moment and they said that the pollution was so bad this morning that looking out of a window you couldn't see the building next it. Scary thought of how much damage that'd do to your lungs.

The air pollution levels are similar to living an airport smoking lounge. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-30/beijing-air-akin-to...

EDIT: apparently my post below was predicated on a false assumption, please disregard.

That's Beijing, not Shanghai, and I think we can assume that Beijing is at least slightly cleaner than Shanghai, if not by much.

According this article[0], Shanghai's level reached 602.5, which, when compared to the data on the graph you linked, is about 75 points higher than Beijing.

[0]: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/smog-extremely...

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#27

Post by danielweber »

Symmetry wrote: post #9
JonFish85 wrote: post #6

What? But China ratified the Kyoto protocol and pledged to reduce their pollution. This can't be true! It's almost as if the country completely disregarded the treaty to grow their economy at any expense.

The Kyoto protocol has to do with CO2 emissions, which are very different from the sort of particulate and sulfur pollution described in the article. Also, I have no idea whether China is actually following that treaty, but the reason the US didn't sign was that it did actually allow China to drastically increase the amount of fossil fuels it burns.

Yes, China and India are considered "developing" countries by Kyoto and can produce all the CO2 they want under the treaty, so of course they signed it.

EDIT: and, of course, it was about CO2, not particulates. A country can make certain trade-offs about different types of pollution (particulates v. CO2 v. NOX).

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#29

Post by [deleted] »

Sharlin wrote: post #16

I wonder how this compares to the worst smogs experienced in London and elsewhere before the West got its act together with regard to particulate pollution. Apparently the Great Smog of 1952 killed on the order of 10000 people in just a few days. I'm not sure many young people nowadays realize how horrible the situation was just half a century ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_1952

[deleted]

Re: Schoolchildren ordered indoors as air pollution cloaks Shanghai

#30

Post by davepage »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #20
matthewrudy wrote: post #10

I love China but pollution, the great firewall, and visa complications make it less attractive as somewhere to live.

Speaking as someone who lives in China... The firewall won't bother you (assuming you wish to get around it); it's there for the masses. Any idiot with a US citizenship can get a tourist visa, lasting a year and having only the requirement "visit Hong Kong (or any other non-China location) every three months" (I was unambitious, and got a two-month one). Someone of my acquaintance says he paid a visa-help company $10…

$1000! Crazy laowai. As a data point, my current F visa is 2 years, multi-entry, 90 days and cost the nominal fee plus about $100 for the visa company to drop it off at the consulate. Apparently, the F visa has been re-purposed and there is a new M business visa. Any practical experience with that?

[of course, China habitually hassles journalists (Bloomberg) over visas]

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