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India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

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Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#21

Post by halfoot »

demallien wrote: post #16
ashray wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a climate change perspective, yes. But from just a general air pollution perspective, a lot of effective regulation needs to happen for industries to stop pumping noxious gases into the atmosphere. There are hardly any limits on industries and they can pump whatever they feel like into the air. Catalytic convertors for factories ? Almost non-existent! I know that the discussion of general air pollution is slight…

Actually India is going to be hard-hit by climate change on several fronts. Firstly, many parts of southern India are low-lying and will be affected by rising sea levels. Then there's the effect that India is in the tropical zone - they've already experienced devastating monsoons and this is only predicted to get worse (see Typhoon Yolanda) as time goes by. Lastly, those glaciers aren't far away, they're right there…

Stop with your preaching already, India has blocked the talks because developed countries have gone back on many of the promises they have agreed to keep including funding, technology transfer and their own commitments to reducing their emissions.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#22

Post by rodgerd »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #3

Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…

That's certainly true, but assuming the science is correct on this issue, we're squabbling over who gets which bits said of the houses while they're burning down. With us in them.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#23

Post by nickff »

tks2103 wrote: post #20
nickff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has also been given opportunities never available to western countries during their period of industrialization, such as access to a wide variety of medicine and technology. I would just like it to be clear that India is in a different situation than what many others were at comparable levels of development.

India was also colonized. You aren't being unbiased when you point out medicine and technology, but not colonialism.

You are correct that India was colonized by the British, and the Empire extracted wealth from the subcontinent while creating institutions of debatable value; it should also be noted that England was previously within the dominion of Rome, and later France.

I was not attempting to fully describe the differing circumstances surrounding industrialization of different states (, as I do not have the knowledge or ability to write a complete account); instead I tried to show that they have experienced different opportunities and circumstances through a limited example.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#24

Post by InclinedPlane »

If CO2 emissions are truly an existential threat to the world's population then, aside from other obvious steps, the wealthy countries of the world should be subsidizing the adoption of carbon neutral energy sources in the developing world. Asking the poor to forgo stepping up into affluence is too much to ask and immoral in the extreme.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#25

Post by icambron »

AxisOfEval wrote: post #10
ashray wrote: post #2

The problem with these talks are that from a developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because: 1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be. 2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind. This may or may not be true but with this kind o…

Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents. While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR vi…

I totally understand the sense of injustice here, but it doesn't actually change anything. This isn't really a question of what's fair. Climate change is an actual real thing that really does have to be dealt with, and it's pretty much impossible to deal with without the two most populous countries on board. Questions of ladders and cycles and all of the past and present irresponsibility on the part of Western countries doesn't change that. I'm pessimistic about the whole thing because I think the US and other rich countries will balk on it too (or just break it down the road), but that doesn't make India less wrong about it.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#26

Post by srinR »

dredmorbius wrote: post #15
lake99 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how access to medicine makes any difference to climate change policies. I'll leave that aside. I don't quite get what you mean by "during their period of industrialization". Industrial progress does not work that way. One can't just pick a number (e.g. 25) and say India is 25 years behind the developed countries in its path to industrialization. Some Indians are still living in the stone age [1]. Others,…

I don't see how access to medicine makes any difference Look over the history of the Industrial Revolution -- roughly 1750 - 1950. At the start of that we had no real working engines, transportation systems, concept of energy or thermodynamics, understanding of evolution or germ theory, and a whole host of other concepts, as well as practical technologies: steam engines, metalurgy, steel, chemicals, electricity, comm…

I was driven to sign up and comment by your snide remark about cholera being "imported from India, as it happens". But you do make some important points too, though spoiled somewhat by the introduction of John Michael Greer, whose involvement with what I call 'non-evidence-based healing techniques' does not make him much credible.

About your important points: yes, the industrial revolution (roughly 1750-1950 as you say) was when most scientific, industrial, medical and engineering advances were made, and this happened in England, the US and Western Europe. All true, but, even here, it was not as if these changes were driven solely by a spirit of inquiry or general altruism, and it was not as if the rest of the world had no role to play. It was greed and the competition amongst nation states that drove a lot of the change; and it was financed to a large extent by systematic exploitation of people from other parts of the world - through colonisation, slavery, etc. India itself was under British colonisation during most of this period (1750-1950). And whole swathes of Africa and Asia were similarly colonised in that period.

About cholera, if it was "imported from India", it was the British themselves who did the importing of it and their people suffered the consequences. On the other hand, the indigenous people living in Australia and the Americas did not ask the British and Europeans to come to their lands and bring in small pox with them, but they did anyway; and it devastated whole populations there.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#27

Post by tks2103 »

nickff wrote: post #23
tks2103 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India was also colonized. You aren't being unbiased when you point out medicine and technology, but not colonialism.

You are correct that India was colonized by the British, and the Empire extracted wealth from the subcontinent while creating institutions of debatable value; it should also be noted that England was previously within the dominion of Rome, and later France. I was not attempting to fully describe the differing circumstances surrounding industrialization of different states (, as I do not have the knowledge or ability…

Bullshit, dude. You are being a coward.

Does Rome or France conquering England have an effect on the way we should manage global emissions policy or not? Because if it doesn't, why are you mentioning it?

Do the different circumstances that India has during industrialization mean they should take a greater role in limiting their emissions or not? Because you mentioned just two items, medicine and technology, which are both positive. And you didn't indicate how they relate to emissions.

Instead of slipping in minor irrelevant facts that betray your bias, just state your opinion.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#28

Post by tks2103 »

icambron wrote: post #25
AxisOfEval wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents. While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR vi…

I totally understand the sense of injustice here, but it doesn't actually change anything. This isn't really a question of what's fair. Climate change is an actual real thing that really does have to be dealt with, and it's pretty much impossible to deal with without the two most populous countries on board. Questions of ladders and cycles and all of the past and present irresponsibility on the part of Western countr…

The sense of injustice changes the way emissions should be cut across the population.

Western countries just want to have more stuff at all costs. The developing countries know this, from direct experience in recent memory. So they are not going to play ball.

It is extremely critical to understand that the reasons the developing countries are not playing ball is different than the reasons developed countries are not playing ball.

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#29

Post by alan_cx »

sliverstorm wrote: post #12
AxisOfEval wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents. While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR vi…

It's not a perfect cycle. LA's terrible smog was not a result of not caring , it was a result of the catalytic converter not existing . Guess what, the catalytic converter exists now.

Was the smog was there before LA started pumping out pollution?

Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations

#30

Post by waps »

srinR wrote: post #26
dredmorbius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how access to medicine makes any difference Look over the history of the Industrial Revolution -- roughly 1750 - 1950. At the start of that we had no real working engines, transportation systems, concept of energy or thermodynamics, understanding of evolution or germ theory, and a whole host of other concepts, as well as practical technologies: steam engines, metalurgy, steel, chemicals, electricity, comm…

I was driven to sign up and comment by your snide remark about cholera being "imported from India, as it happens". But you do make some important points too, though spoiled somewhat by the introduction of John Michael Greer, whose involvement with what I call 'non-evidence-based healing techniques' does not make him much credible. About your important points: yes, the industrial revolution (roughly 1750-1950 as you s…

Exactly. So if the greens' claims about solar power are true, then the -major part of- the pollution will soon stop.

If they're false, it's a lost cause. People are not going to lower their living standard, especially not in India, to comply with new limitations.

So let's see.

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