India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
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Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#2The problem with these talks are that from a developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because:
1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be.
2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind.
This may or may not be true but with this kind of perception, such talks will never go through. Also, there are choking levels of pollution in New Delhi [1] and Beijing. The cities are really uncomfortable, and there is a growing body of research to show that air pollution is carcinogenic. [2]
These countries would do well to curb pollution and use clean energy just in the interest of public health. Unfortunately, public health is very low on the agenda.
New Delhi is on the brink of ecological collapse (or maybe beyond that depending on the definition). There is no clean air, clean water, or clean soil. There are no numbers to indicate how many pollution related deaths occur in India annually or what kind of productivity is lost. Frankly, no one cares either. Until someone is personally effected (in a drastic way, like NO2 poisoning and dropping dead..) there will be no change. A very large percentage of children in New Delhi are diagnosed with asthma. [1]
Climate change is a far cry from getting discussed if domestic air pollution isn't a cause for concern.
Source: I am Indian and spend a lot of time there quite often.
[1] - http://bkpk.me/cigarettes-arent-that-bad-after-all/
[2] - http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/17/health/geneva-air-pollutio...
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#3Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.)
I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life is worth less than a life in a developed country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dio...
This is like moving into a new house and being forced to pay for the damage caused by the old tenants. And the old tenants are forcing you to pay for the damage while they live across the street in a brand new house constructed by stealing from the old place.
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#4Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…
India has also been given opportunities never available to western countries during their period of industrialization, such as access to a wide variety of medicine and technology. I would just like it to be clear that India is in a different situation than what many others were at comparable levels of development.
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#5Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…
From a climate change perspective, yes. But from just a general air pollution perspective, a lot of effective regulation needs to happen for industries to stop pumping noxious gases into the atmosphere. There are hardly any limits on industries and they can pump whatever they feel like into the air. Catalytic convertors for factories ? Almost non-existent!
I know that the discussion of general air pollution is slightly off topic here, but it really is very bad in New Delhi, and eventually does reach the subject of climate change.
Another perspective: If India doesn't care about air pollution within India which affects it's own population, it's unlikely they will care about some glaciers melting far away sometime in the future and affecting people in far away countries.
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#6Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…
India has also been given opportunities never available to western countries during their period of industrialization, such as access to a wide variety of medicine and technology. I would just like it to be clear that India is in a different situation than what many others were at comparable levels of development.
Those options are expensive. Why should the rich and powerful give up profit margins for better public health and so that other countries don't get typhoons ? Unfortunately, money is much more powerful than any other motivation. The government helps curb such attitudes but the government listens to the people (atleast in theory..), and the people are indifferent.
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#7There is something almost colonialist about the way the arguments on the Indian side are never given (although their motives are discussed in depth).
Last time I checked, both China and India argued that global emissions limits should be done on a per-capita basis, and that therefore China and India should not be obligated to reduce their emissions.
While there are arguments to be made against this claim (e.g. should China and India be rewarded for their large populations?), it would be nice to see these arguments being addressed directly, rather than assuming that non-Westerners are only ever driven by base politics.
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#8Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…
From a climate change perspective, yes. But from just a general air pollution perspective, a lot of effective regulation needs to happen for industries to stop pumping noxious gases into the atmosphere. There are hardly any limits on industries and they can pump whatever they feel like into the air. Catalytic convertors for factories ? Almost non-existent! I know that the discussion of general air pollution is slight…
Catalytic converters operate at high temperatures, (600 C,) which is much higher than the exhaust temperature of most factory exhausts; thus they would not be compatible. In addition, most emissions from factories are not un-combusted fuels (which CCs process), for a couple of reasons including the simple fact that most industrial processes which emit exhausts are run at steady state, and have been optimized to the point where nearly all the fuel is utilized. Particulate emissions are a real issue, as are dangerous vapors, but these are eliminated by various other remedies (such as filters and other sequestrations).
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#9Logically speaking for India to reduce its total emissions one of two things should happen: a huge number of people in India should die or Indians should consume almost nothing (everything else being equal.) I don't understand how anyone can fault India for its current stance given that the state we are in was caused by the developed countries. The only way anyone can fault India is by asserting that an Indian life i…
India has also been given opportunities never available to western countries during their period of industrialization, such as access to a wide variety of medicine and technology. I would just like it to be clear that India is in a different situation than what many others were at comparable levels of development.
I don't see how access to medicine makes any difference to climate change policies. I'll leave that aside.
I don't quite get what you mean by "during their period of industrialization". Industrial progress does not work that way. One can't just pick a number (e.g. 25) and say India is 25 years behind the developed countries in its path to industrialization. Some Indians are still living in the stone age [1]. Others, such as the average Indian commenter on HN, is working on technology that we will all use, a couple of years down the line.
Whatever the case may be, I think you'd learn a great deal if you stayed in India for a couple of years. The recycling I have seen here is, in some ways, better than anywhere else in the world [2]. A few examples that you'll see commonly here: carry-bags and wrapping paper made of old newspapers, shoes re-soled using worn-out tractor tires, peddlers going door-to-door giving big discounts on new vessels, in exchange for old vessels, etc. People at various economic strata of society squeeze out every little bit of economic worth from every little thing.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese_people
[2] On second thought, it's quite likely that many others of the so-called developing countries would recycle about as much as Indians do.
Re: India blocking climate talks: Warsaw, Bangkok, and Kyoto negotiations
#10The problem with these talks are that from a developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because: 1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be. 2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind. This may or may not be true but with this kind o…
Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are.
That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents.
While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR violations. More here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQZJ5Jl41nk