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I Hope My Father Dies Soon

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Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#171

Post by JshWright »

gohrt wrote: post #164
JshWright wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a similar position on a fairly regular basis, and I can tall you that DNRs absolutely do matter. It would take the threat of physical violence to get me to perform ACLS on someone with a valid DNR (this is in a prehospital EMS setting). A DNR represents the expressed wishes of the patient. Disregarding that is a serious breach of medical this. I'm not sure how often she came across that particular dilemma. As…

As a pre-hospital EMS provider, how do you have time to determine the presence and validity of a DNR before making your choice?

It's pretty simple... is there a DNR in my hand that hasn't expired and has been signed by both the patient and a doctor and hasn't expired? If yes, then don't initiate resuscitation.

Obviously a DNR could be forged, but baring obvious cases of forgery (which I've never seen), we're not liable for honoring a DNR that we reasonably believe is valid.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#172

Post by VLM »

Xdes wrote: post #88
VLM wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He also points out early in the article that there are financial considerations: > His smallish estate pays about $8,000 per month to keep him in this state of perpetual suffering." Now you understand the reason for opposition to euthanasia. The purpose of government is to keep the rich, rich, and the poor, poor. Emptying his estate into the medical industrial complex is not an incidental side effect, but the sole p…

That's quite a conspiracy you have there.

Politicians aligning laws to maximize corporate profits is not exactly unheard of...

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#173

Post by VLM »

gohrt wrote: post #162
tsotha wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her husband was already in a relationship with another woman, who he wished to marry. His memory was the only source for her supposed wishes, and he was the one pushing to end her life. You don't have to be a religious fanatic to see a problem here.

Does a coma preclude divorce?

Well, she's not going to sign the papers or get custody. Or if you have power of attorney to sign the papers there might be some conflict of interest.

On obvious solution is to not get married again and just shack up. Its the more intelligent thing to do anyway.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#174

Post by seivan »

gohrt wrote: post #159
olefoo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where does your "friendly-AI" draw it's moral template from? I mean, I'm OK with an AI that works tirelessly in the background keeping the air clean and the habitat habitable. However I don't want a computer, no matter how smart; telling me what I and consenting partners choose to do. Or deciding whether or not we must or can use birth control. Or any of a thousand other forms of infringing on human agency.

> I'm OK with an AI that works tirelessly in the background keeping the air clean and the habitat habitable Are you sure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1-DQ2Wo_w "I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surro…

Love that quote & scene.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#175

Post by tsotha »

jbooth wrote: post #170
tsotha wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her husband was already in a relationship with another woman, who he wished to marry. His memory was the only source for her supposed wishes, and he was the one pushing to end her life. You don't have to be a religious fanatic to see a problem here.

So we're not talking about the religious motivations of the bazillion people who never even met the woman anymore? We're attempting to impugn the husband's motives by implying he wanted her dead so he could date someone else? How does that even work, why would he need her dead?

I don't know anyone for whom it was about religion. And yeah, the husband had motives for wanting to get rid of her - both because he wanted to remarry and because of money. Is that why he did what he did? No idea. But in this case the parents should have been allowed to make the decision.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#176

Post by bane »

brownbat wrote: post #167
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #26

Since this concerns the U.S. government, I'll say that the vendetta against euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide by the Christian right is puzzling. The Bible has a very ambivalent view on suicide (as with any other topic), the tale of Samson being a prime example. The main argument against suicide comes from Corinthians, but it is starkly contradicted by other passages. A person who is slowly succumbing, immobile,…

There's another wrinkle from history. Depressed medieval Christians would avoid suicide, with its attendant eternal hellfires, by murdering children. That's right, murdering children. The innocents, they believed, would ascend to heaven. The murderer would be able to apologize for the murder and receive last rites from the Church before the State put them to death for their crime. They would die, go to heaven, and ta…

The parallel today is "suicide by cop".

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#177

Post by jlgaddis »

JshWright wrote: post #114
jlgaddis wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently, I dated a nurse who worked on the cardiac floor of the hospital. She had patients who died every day. One day, the subject of DNRs came up. Interestingly, she mentioned that "they're meaningless". When I asked her about it, she said that if, for example, I had a DNR but an immediately family member told them to "save me", they would disregard the DNR and do it. The reasoning, she told me, was that regardles…

I'm in a similar position on a fairly regular basis, and I can tall you that DNRs absolutely do matter. It would take the threat of physical violence to get me to perform ACLS on someone with a valid DNR (this is in a prehospital EMS setting). A DNR represents the expressed wishes of the patient. Disregarding that is a serious breach of medical this. I'm not sure how often she came across that particular dilemma. As…

> I'm not sure how often she came across that particular dilemma.

Not very often -- AIUI she spent most of her time "freezing" patients (inducing hypothermia).

Somehow we got on the subject of DNRs and she explained their policy/reasoning to me. Basically, if a patient w/ a DNR "coded" and a family member was yelling to save them, they would.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#178

Post by jlgaddis »

JshWright wrote: post #171
gohrt wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a pre-hospital EMS provider, how do you have time to determine the presence and validity of a DNR before making your choice?

It's pretty simple... is there a DNR in my hand that hasn't expired and has been signed by both the patient and a doctor and hasn't expired? If yes, then don't initiate resuscitation. Obviously a DNR could be forged, but baring obvious cases of forgery (which I've never seen), we're not liable for honoring a DNR that we reasonably believe is valid.

What about a "verbal DNR"?

I was recently involved in a pretty bad motorcycle accident and was asked multiple times (by EMS on the scene, medical staff in the ER, medical staff right before going into the OR, etc.) if I had a DNR and/or if I would want them to attempt to save me if something happened.

I remember thinking that was kinda weird since my assumption was that such requests would need to be in writing. Perhaps it was because I was incapable of writing or signing my name, though (two broken wrists)? Instead of me signing any documents, they just asked me verbally after making sure they had two other employees present as witnesses.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#179

Post by Houshalter »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #123
Houshalter wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point actually. Especially if you could do it with low risk of being caught/convicted. Which should be possible with someone who is dying anyways and you have full access to them in the hospital and could just slip some poison or something into them. I don't blame the author for not doing that though. Maybe it didn't even occur to him. But it's a good point that if you truly thought it was so terrible y…

But there is also the risk of inflicting even more suffering. Even killing (instead of, say, crippling) oneself with all the time and resources in the world to do it is not an easy task; but killing someone you love, without inflicting even more pain and without getting caught, in a hospital of all places, now that seems near impossible for a layperson.

Depends on the method of killing. And even a painful one is still probably preferable than long drawn out suffering.

I assumed the poisoning would be easy and doctors wouldn't look for it but that may not be trivial. But if you actually cared it would be worth a few hours of research at the very least.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#180

Post by JshWright »

jlgaddis wrote: post #178
JshWright wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty simple... is there a DNR in my hand that hasn't expired and has been signed by both the patient and a doctor and hasn't expired? If yes, then don't initiate resuscitation. Obviously a DNR could be forged, but baring obvious cases of forgery (which I've never seen), we're not liable for honoring a DNR that we reasonably believe is valid.

What about a "verbal DNR"? I was recently involved in a pretty bad motorcycle accident and was asked multiple times (by EMS on the scene, medical staff in the ER, medical staff right before going into the OR, etc.) if I had a DNR and/or if I would want them to attempt to save me if something happened. I remember thinking that was kinda weird since my assumption was that such requests would need to be in writing. Perh…

That's actually _better_ than a written document as far as I'm concerned. A DNR basically says "If I'm unable to speak for myself, here's how I would like to be treated." If you _are_ able to tell me how you want to be treated, then there's no question (assuming I'm confident in your ability to make informed decisions... not drunk off your ass... etc...)
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