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Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

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Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#191

What's with the sudden outpouring of Google-hate of late? I totally get that Google is changing, and has been doing so for a while. But I don't see that as "evil," and I'm struggling to see why anybody would. Google around maybe five or six years ago was a wasteland of shoddy, broken, unintegrated products, many with half-assed, confusing interfaces. That's been tightened up - many of their products are now substanti…

As a guy who inspired two top-level stories yesterday, a few speculations. For myself, the company I once turned to to provide me useful things, save me time, respect my privacy (and certainly not pester me for personal information or publicly link my activity across entirely independent activities and sites), and get out of the way of doing things, is now proving me increasingly useless, wasting my time, disrespecti…

I work at Google, have done for about 7 years now. This is my first comment at HN.

I think your comment about "not coercive" is insightful. The biggest change I've seen over time here is that at the start, people never talked about what users should or should not do. They were treated as people who would use our products, or not, and that was A-OK.

The subtle trend that underlies a lot of this recent outpouring of dismay is that these days, this view has changed. It's not about chasing profit (it's still extremely rare at Google to see anything approaching a budget). It's not about being evil. It's that these days users are increasingly treated as if they were sheep that need to be herded around.

This trend is evidence in many different ways. The big push for Google+ comes from Larry's fear of Facebook. He got really scared a few years ago that Facebook was going to "win" in any area they competed in, simply through being social, regardless of how good their actual product was. Photos was taken as the canonical example: Facebook Photos was inferior in almost every way to PicasaWeb but it won handily in terms of market share because it was social (or so the theory goes). Messaging seemed similar, surveys showed the younger generation didn't use email anymore, it was all on Facebook. So at the time it was thought that Facebook were going to take on every one of Google's core products and win, simply through having the social graph. So that fear drove the massive investment in Google+ and the desire to win at any cost.

Of course this strategy has not worked, as was predictable. Google+ is an excellent social network, but people already had one and didn't care to change. Also, the threat from Facebook has never really seemed to materialise in the huge way Larry thought it would.

Unfortunately this fear drove a long series of mental rationalisations. People would use Google+, employees were told, because it would be good for them. They might not realise it now, but Google+ would make everything better, and that's why it's so important that they all sign up. Real Names might be unpopular to start with, but then people would realise the benefits and they'd all be happy.

The same thinking has driven a bunch of other problems. That damn red alerting bell that Google+ users all get? It can't be switched off, rationale: "if we allow users to switch it off because it's too noisy, after we fix that they won't switch it back on and then they'd end up in a worse state. It's really better for people in the long term that there be no way to disable it".

Unfortunately Larry is so committed to this fear-driven social strategy that he can't mentally accept that a large population of users is never going to be excited about or use Google+. For him, if Google+ loses, Google itself will become entirely irrelevant a short time later. It's literally an existential crisis. This places Vic in a very powerful position where he's able to get whatever he wants, and pushback from the lower ranks is ignored in order to seem to be making progress with this "better for the users" social integration.

I guess YouTube comments are a good recent example of this. Presumably someone at the bottom of the YouTube org understood that removing character limits and allowing links would immediately cause floods of spam, but the "social is better" meme is now so unmoveable amongst management that these sorts of practical considerations (which would once have been the dominant factor in decision making) get tossed aside.

I don't know if Google will change, but unless Larry wakes up and realises Facebook isn't going to kill his business, I think it will continue down the current path for a long time yet.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#192
post #65

If you ask me, one of Google's biggest strategic successes was their ability to convince an entire generation of engineers that they were something other than a company. The way many (otherwise intelligent) people talk about it, you'd think it was a religion. What you're seeing here is not the shattering of a dream, but of an illusion -- Google hasn't been a scrappy, idealistic startup for many years. It's a fine com…

While eating my second dinner plate of something delicious on the campus I looked around and saw how many children and families were around. The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family. So now you become a company man. What's good for the company must be good for you. What's good about knowing more people, how they…

Google fascinates me. I think it is possibly the first organization in history that embodies concepts from dystopic fiction. Putting a real face to those dystopic ideas can give us a sense of what a true dystopia looks like (short answer: it looks deceptively nice; the horror reveals itself only on close inspection).

You mention work. As you say, Google does not just want their employees' time. They want their complete identification with the company. In a way, they want their souls.

As for business, Google is a company whose business model is tricking people into sharing as much private information with the company, and then using this information for profit.

One of the most interesting things about Google is their "don't be evil" motto. I want to write a complete literary interpretation of it some other time, but here are the highlights. Obviously, it's a short and catchy motto that is not intended to be taken too seriously, but that does not preclude literary interpretation.

First, let's consider the motto as a whole. It could be a motto for anyone, but how come it's Google's and not mine (or yours)? The reason is that they accept the premise that corporations do often turn out to be "evil" (whatever that means). This is analogous to the reason physicians swear to "do no harm"; they swear it because doctors can easily do harm.

Now let's take the motto apart and analyze it word by word. First, the word "evil". The word assumes such a thing exists and can be recognizable. Second, the word "be". It implies that evil is something you are, not something you do. Lastly, the word "don't". It assumes that you can choose not to "be" "evil", and implies that those who "are" "evil" are so because they chose to be that way.

If a motto can guide a corporation, and if this motto guides Google, we can see why they've become so monstrously terrifying. Evil is not always easily recognizable. Often, it's in the eyes of the beholder. Second, evil is rarely something you are, and almost always something you do. Third, "evil" creeps up on you, and is often the result of the best intentions. People other than James Bond villains don't choose to be evil. Similarly you can't simply choose not to be. To abstain from "evil" you must be vigilant. You must constantly analyze your actions and their consequences separately from your intentions, and listen to other viewpoints.

Going back to dystopias, well known ones, like Orwell's 1984, insist that the masses love their oppressors rather than fear them. This is a crucial point that is largely overlooked when people discuss the NSA surveillance scandal. It is crucial because true power, absolute oppression, cannot exist if its wielder is generally considered suspect.

When I read 1984 many years ago I couldn't understand that. Do people not notice that they're being manipulated and exploited? Can they actually enjoy being exploited? Now we have the answer.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#193

I am not sure decline is the correct word. Google's choice of direction really bugs me. Scrapping the 20% developer time is fine. Cutting down projects to focus the company on a handful of products is cool. I never used Reader anyway. What is worrying is the way Google is becoming more and more creepy. They have so much information about you and with the increasing rollout of Google+ I feel more and more like I am be…

20% time has not been scrapped.

This is a recurrent rumour that pops up over and over again. It is not true.

There have always been people who felt like they were unable to take it, or it was really 120% time or whatever. I've had a variety of 20% projects for years, and I've never worked 120%.

You have to be able to manage your teams and managers expectations, and if you commit to a deadline and fall behind then you're obviously going to have to "bank" that time. If you are in a team or get yourself into a position where you're constantly committing to unrealistic deadlines that have no slack time in them, of course you'll feel like you can't take 20%. But that's not the companies fault.

20% is a great policy. I don't know what else the company could do to make it easier to take really: managers aren't allowed to deny it to you, and you're allowed to bank it up to a reasonable cap if you have to focus on a main project for a while. At that point it's really up to you and your own time management.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does all this say about Larry Page? He gave a speech recently where he actually pondered why people wouldn't want to have their health care data public, so it could be shared to advance medical research. From that I could tell that he's completely out of touch with ordinary people. He simply has no idea that people might be scared of losing their job or being discriminated against because of an illness. Reminds…

Making the healthcare data public in an anonymised format would not affect people's jobs, unless there is some property of that data that makes it easily identifiable.

Good luck with the anonymisation. It only has to fail once for catastrophic consequences.

Look back to how we handled HIV/AIDS in the 1980s. Enormous amounts of fear (understandable) and utter disgust-filled loathing (not so much). There were politicians calling for AIDS sufferers to be rounded up and put in quarantine camps but refusing to engage in public health initiatives because they thought that warning people to use condoms and engage in safe sex would "promote" homosexuality.

Up until 2010 in Britain, it was legal for a dentist to refuse to take an HIV+ patient even though the professional association for dentists had told dentists that it was safe to use the same procedures around sterilisation and safety. It also made no sense as it just led to people lying about their HIV status to dentists in order to get access to health services.

I know people who have faced discrimination in work over chronic mental health conditions that they are being treated for. People who have held down other jobs perfectly well, who take less sick leave than people without any health conditions. There is still significant social stigma around mental health conditions: nobody considers you morally suspicious if you have, say, eczema or hay fever, but if you have depression or schizophrenia, some will consider you too "risky" to employ etc.

So, yes, "please make all your medical records public" sounds nice. I've spoken to friends who, thanks to people like Schmidt and others breathlessly promoting this kind of thing at TED talks, think that anyone who wishes to actually exercise their medical privacy to be "irrational". And that medical privacy is a silly idea that we wouldn't choose to have now and that we only have for historical reasons. That the bright sparks of Silicon Valley can't see the importance of medical privacy is really concerning—it shows they've failed to look at the history of discrimination and fear-mongering against people with particular health conditions. Or, worse, it shows they've thought about it and don't give a shit about protecting people from mistreatment by both the state and by other individuals based on their health conditions.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family" Ah, the infamous golden cage At times like this I'm so glad I didn't join Google. And by join I mean I wasn't approved in their dysfunctional interview system.

We all live in cages, all that varies is how golden they are and how big they are.

Well, everything comes at a price, too.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been at Apple and at Google. Googlers annoy me endlessly because everyone knows the mission and everyone thinks they're on the same mission. Even if their job is indirectly related or even if what they're doing is potentially evil. They all believe they are changing the world. It's what they tell their aging hippie parents when they visit, it's what they brainwash the legions of school children that visit, it's what…

It is to be expected, to some extent, for people in the tech industry to be pompous. After all many of us have been great universities and were taught (or perhaps suggested) that we are the smartest of all. I see this general pomposity among my fellow techies all the time. Some think that business people are stupid, some think humanities are unnecessary, some argue that users are all noobs etc... Perhaps it's pride i…

We probably shouldn't confuse a handful of start ups and successful corporations with "the tech industry" as if it's a single entity.

To me there are at least two bits of the industry - the bit where that either because of the work or because of the culture those working in it might convince themselves that they're changing the world, and the bit where people largely write CRUD database apps that save a few people, usually working for corporations, a bit of time.

Far more people work in the second camp and in my experience most of them really aren't that pompous at all.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you served or if you were just alluding to it but your last point got me thinking: In the Army, I lived the most barebones kind of lifestyle and did a job that often put my family through hell but was buoyed by the feeling that I was part of the most noble of professions. In this industry, I've provided incredible privilege, comfort, and stability for my family but have always felt that this industry…

Is this sarcasm? Do you really consider being in the Army a noble profession? And do you think that the software industry serves humanity in general less than military industry?

Serving one's country, and being willing to sacrifice oneself for the protection of others is noble.

Did chat roulette enhance humanity? Was all the software thats been developed to enable spying and subjugation enhancing humanity?

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#198
The stock market thinks differently. GOOG is above 1,000 for a while now.

Of course you may dismiss my point rapidly since the Market is more interested in Financial profit than any other thing. But the same thing can be said about Hacker News.

What bothers HN readers/writers will not, necessarily, bother the average consumer, the same way what really boost the Stocks may don't matter to average HN reader.

Despite the fact that HN hates the new Gmail Compose, and the new Youtube comment system these are still the most compelling offers in their fields for the average consumer.

HN seems to have the urge to not only discuss their opinion but try to flush down everyone's throat and then generalize broadly.

Google's Decline here could be better written as "Google Decline, among hacker news readers."

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#200

I stopped reading at "I'm not female, so I don't have to worry about getting thousands of rape threats every month". Inserting unsubstantiated claims for shock value into an argument just detracts from any other points he is trying to make.

You did yourself a favour
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