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Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

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Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Micro$oft leveraged their market dominance to stifle competition. Google leverages their market dominance to... get more people to create more data with real names.

Microsoft leveraged their market dominance to distribute more copies of Windows and Office, not to stifle competition. Your statement makes it sound like you don't understand the profit motive. Distributing more software is how they earn more money. The $ reveals what you think of Microsoft, and going by that, one would have to assume you think Microsoft's goal was to optimize profit. Optimizing profit would require…

Maybe you're older or maybe you know something more than me but Micro$oft I remember already won the Windows and Office game. It was Borg Gates by my time. They then used that market dominance to handicap, break, or deny entries by anyone else into the platform. They also used it to make Internet Explorer a thing.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say about the profit motive either. Distribution doesn't necessarily means profit nor driven by profit.

They could have tossed Windows on to blank CDs and threw it out of helicopters if they want but it serves no purpose when they were making fat margins licensing Windows to Dell.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#142
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of Google's biggest strategic successes was their ability to convince an entire generation of engineers that they were something other than a company Interesting. Would you statement hold if I replace Google with Apple, and engineers with consumers?

Imo. The difference is the control Steve had over the company when he was alive. At Google, despite how well run the company is, you really do not know the direction or vision for the company although everything _seems_ really cool. Where as at Apple, the idea is you were sacrificing in order to help Steve achieve _his_ vision.

Been at Apple and at Google.

Googlers annoy me endlessly because everyone knows the mission and everyone thinks they're on the same mission. Even if their job is indirectly related or even if what they're doing is potentially evil.

They all believe they are changing the world. It's what they tell their aging hippie parents when they visit, it's what they brainwash the legions of school children that visit, it's what they insist to the political leaders when they visit.

Every Googler thinks they're there to serve humanity and it's pompous.

When I was at Apple the goal was helping the user. You made a better thing so someone can use it better. You made something that your mom could use. You tried harder so that a baby can pick it up and it just works.

Most people didn't care about Steve. Hell, he walked around the cafeteria, grabbed his cookie, but no one really cares. Just yet another eccentric old dude walking around in a place full of eccentric old dudes in skirts and high heels.

What I hated about Apple though was that we loved users so much it became a problem. We suffered from the battered-wives syndrome. Where we tolerated and accepted everything. It became to be a love-hate relationship where on one hand we appreciated users but on the other there was such a disdain for them as well.

Every Apple person thinks they're different because they make things work in a world where things don't work because people are too stupid to make it work. It's equally as pompous as Google.

Hell the whole of Silicon Valley is really pompous, geeks just do a really good job hiding it when the attention wasn't on this place.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While eating my second dinner plate of something delicious on the campus I looked around and saw how many children and families were around. The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family. So now you become a company man. What's good for the company must be good for you. What's good about knowing more people, how they…

I don't know if you served or if you were just alluding to it but your last point got me thinking: In the Army, I lived the most barebones kind of lifestyle and did a job that often put my family through hell but was buoyed by the feeling that I was part of the most noble of professions. In this industry, I've provided incredible privilege, comfort, and stability for my family but have always felt that this industry…

> always felt that this industry principally serves those who are a part of it

So kinda like the Army as well? (i.e. Military-Industrial complex)

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#144
post #65

If you ask me, one of Google's biggest strategic successes was their ability to convince an entire generation of engineers that they were something other than a company. The way many (otherwise intelligent) people talk about it, you'd think it was a religion. What you're seeing here is not the shattering of a dream, but of an illusion -- Google hasn't been a scrappy, idealistic startup for many years. It's a fine com…

While eating my second dinner plate of something delicious on the campus I looked around and saw how many children and families were around. The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family. So now you become a company man. What's good for the company must be good for you. What's good about knowing more people, how they…

"The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family"

Ah, the infamous golden cage

At times like this I'm so glad I didn't join Google. And by join I mean I wasn't approved in their dysfunctional interview system.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#145
post #10

They are the new Microsoft but they're trying to avoid the same fate of companies like Yahoo and Microsoft; i.e viewed as stodgy old companies that aren't great places to work. The perception about Google needs to be "innovative" which is why there is lots of PR about their X Labs initiatives. But if you think about all of the high profile ones, they aren't really attractive businesses. Driverless cars? It's technolo…

"Companies like Yahoo and Microsoft; i.e viewed as stodgy old companies that aren't great places to work." For what reasons is Microsoft not a great place to work? I may be biased because my brother works there full-time and a friend is interning there but both of them very much enjoy it.

Exactly. Microsoft is still a great place to work. If anything IBM might be a boring place to work given that they're pretty much an IT company now. And Microsoft is definitely a league above Yahoo. Still has great people and where else in the world can you choose to work on quantum computation, the kernel, distributed systems, programming languages, machine learning, search, NLP, browsers, databases, CRM, BI, Computer vision, hardware..within the same company? There's a reason Google, Facebook et al have setup offices in the Kirkland/Seattle area.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#146

What's with the sudden outpouring of Google-hate of late? I totally get that Google is changing, and has been doing so for a while. But I don't see that as "evil," and I'm struggling to see why anybody would. Google around maybe five or six years ago was a wasteland of shoddy, broken, unintegrated products, many with half-assed, confusing interfaces. That's been tightened up - many of their products are now substanti…

As a guy who inspired two top-level stories yesterday, a few speculations.

For myself, the company I once turned to to provide me useful things, save me time, respect my privacy (and certainly not pester me for personal information or publicly link my activity across entirely independent activities and sites), and get out of the way of doing things, is now proving me increasingly useless, wasting my time, disrespecting my privacy (including pestering me for personal information and publicly linking my activity across entirely independent activities and sites), and getting in the way of my doing things.

The company's interests are no longer clearly aligned with mine.

I'm not convinced the company's evil (though I'm also not convinced it's not), but it's certainly lost a certain element of the soul it exhibited when I first encountered it in the late 1990s, and it seems to me that the culture has been broken. I've speculated on why this is, and cannot know for sure. I suspect a large part of it is riding the advertising tiger (see: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070708081303AA... "He who rides the tiger is afraid to dismount"), I fear that it may be cooperating, or forced to cooperate, with intelligence and surveillance operations, and it may well be that a sense of entitlement, exceptionalism, and hubris has taken hold (Vic Gundotra's 2005 blog post against Microsoft's endorsement of a gay marriage proposal in Washington State makes for interesting reading: http://web.archive.org/web/20051119214319/http://vicgundotra...)

Google five or six years ago was still fundamentally Search. Gmail was relatively new, and it was tossing a bunch of research projects "over the wall", some of which were actually pretty neat. Somewhat disorganized, yes, but ... interesting. Most significantly: not coercive. Which, if I think about it, is the biggest change I've seen.

There's a certain lifecycle to tech companies, going from promising upstarts to early pioneers to useful workhorses. And then, too often, it's a decline into an unorganized mess, forced integration among scattered products and tools, and an increasing use of entrenched market power to coerce the response that they can no longer inspire. Microsoft and IBM certainly fit this mold, as does Oracle. I'd consider Apple a curious exception despite my other criticisms of the company.

The single factor that's changed the most for me is that when I see Google's name on some product or tool, my first though now is "nice, but where can I find similar functionality elsewhere?"

And at the same time, the company does seem to be fighting, if slightly belatedly, for increased protections from surveillance and personal data disclosure. Largely on account that it realizes its business model is directly in the crosshairs of such practices.

So, when I came home yesterday to find two G+ posts (both strongly critical of Google) directly inspiring top-of-the-list HN articles, and a third "how to delete your G+ profile" item filling out the top 3, it was pretty surreal. I wonder (and speculated earlier on HN) that there might well be some gaming of the incoming queue, Google certainly has its enemies, and Microsoft's waged a dirty-tricks campaign against the company for years. Apple, Oracle, and Facebook are hardly fast friends. But a lot of what I see written seems pretty organic, and I'm well aware of friends, some who've worked at Google, who are also increasingly disenchanted by the company and its direction. pg would know his queue and voting dynamics.

That's all I've got.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#147
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What's with the sudden outpouring of Google-hate of late? It's because Google is now an established corporation and has run out of "startup cred." Now that they've become a stable, profitable, publicly-traded member of the corporate scene, they're the antithesis of the HipsterNews crowd who want to keep making webapps with no marketabilitiy over and over again. The Bay Area startup crowd are the definition of hipste…

Are you trolling?

If you've got to ask ...

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While eating my second dinner plate of something delicious on the campus I looked around and saw how many children and families were around. The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family. So now you become a company man. What's good for the company must be good for you. What's good about knowing more people, how they…

"The company provides, so much, for you, for your family. You wouldn't to ever lose what you have now gotten used to, for yourself, for your family" Ah, the infamous golden cage At times like this I'm so glad I didn't join Google. And by join I mean I wasn't approved in their dysfunctional interview system.

We all live in cages, all that varies is how golden they are and how big they are.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#149
post #62

What's with the sudden outpouring of Google-hate of late? I totally get that Google is changing, and has been doing so for a while. But I don't see that as "evil," and I'm struggling to see why anybody would. Google around maybe five or six years ago was a wasteland of shoddy, broken, unintegrated products, many with half-assed, confusing interfaces. That's been tightened up - many of their products are now substanti…

People don't like change. People like what they had. People hate that Google is deciding to move forward. Now forcing the changes on their user base so that Google doesn't have an unlimited number of different things to maintain.

I always wondered why this is. I know people hate change and it baffles me (I long for progressive change). I understand that having a basic stable framework is a nice thing to have, but rejecting change outright is somewhat backward IMO.

Then again I was always a fan of SciFi thinking about where we'll be in the future, so I'm probably a weird oddball person.

I'm probably overlooking something here, like re-learning changing stuff is not preferable for many and tech is only tool and not lifestyle.

Re: Google's Decline Really Bugs Me

#150
I am sick of all this Google bashing here on HN; that's what is bugging me, really.

Come on, its a company, they don't owe you anything; They sell your data, yes, but it's still the best search engine, by far; to me it's a tool, and yes, they also use their customers as tools to sell adds, that's what the internet is all about - pushing adds.

They could still do worse, they could push much more adds than they do now, but they don't; That's something that few people seem to notice.

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