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Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

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Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#151

The YouTube/Google+ integration would have been much smoother if it started by giving every existing user a G+ "Page" identity matching their YouTube name, and making that page their default YouTube identity. From the user's perspective there would be no risk of accidentally connecting their legal name to YouTube, and Google would have achieved their goal of a unified login system.

In other words: exactly what the much maligned Yahoo did when integrating acquired services into Yahoo. They may have done a lot of things right, but they did that part right.

You kept your original identity, and the single sign-on was a private matter, you didn't get publicly "outed" as Yahoo user FirstName LastName.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#152
OP's G+ post was a link to a reshare of mine (a story in itself).

I've just made a far-too-long reply to the "Dear Googles: Stop asking" story also trending on HN (how'd I get so lucky? No idea, but thanks). I'll try keeping things shorter here, though recommend reading this as well:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6748332

First: this is fundamentally about respect and trust. Google respecting user's stated preferences regarding disclosure, and users trusting that Google will do so. I argue at length above that the first is absent and the second has been destroyed. This is quite bad for Google's reputation in the long run, especially as a cloud services company.

I'm finding this ... exceptionally confounding given Google's apparent strident opposition to NSA and other surveillance (a position of Google's I unreservedly applaud). As I've argued before, Google with their ever-expanding and increasingly aggressive personal information aggregation efforts are carrying the NSA's water. Personal information can be an asset, but it's also a tremendous liability when misused or mismanaged.

The fact that I've participated in multiple forums (including G+, Hacker News, Reddit, StackExchange, and elsewhere) pseudonymously over the past several years should show that it's possible to carry on reasoned discussions as such. I'd rather intentionally set up this persona to give me both freedom and an at least partially credible reputation for some discussions. As an experiment it's worked pretty well.

What happened with the YouTube / G+ integration (Anschluss as I term it) above is that three Google services I'd independently registered: Gmail, YouTube, and G+, collapsed the walls between each. I'd set these up beginning in 2008 as I determined I'd want a long-term resident pseudonym and I gradually started extending it to additional services. When G+ was first beta'd, I'd initially signed up under my own name, but was quickly convinced by Eric Schmidt's "identity service" comments and NymWars that this was probably not the way I wanted to go, so I wiped that account and set up a pseudonymous one (against G+ TOU at the time). At some point I'd also configured a YouTube account, using the same Gmail account to register both. My views on video viewing (as with much else) are that it's a private activity and, even pseudonymously, I don't share my viewing actions with others unless I fully consciously intend to do so. Some of us with longer memories recall Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork and the snooping of his video rental habits, as well as librarians who resisted FBI attempts to turn up patron's library records.

So I had and intended to retain a wall between the two accounts.

And Google knocked it down.

So I posted about it. And I'm trying to figure out what to do with my G+ account, so when Andi re-shared my post and found that other's couldn't re-share her (excellent) content, I recommended she keep the re-share (as that will preserve my own content should I purge it or leave G+), and create a new post linking to her own re-share. That's ... one of many hoops G+ makes you jump through. All. The. Time.

Not only did Google demolish that wall, against my intent, but there's no clear way to undo that action. As I mentioned to Yonatan Zunger, this is no longer about UI/UX, workflows, tools, or technology, it's about trust. And Google have very clearly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to maintain a confidence expressly stated as such.

Trust is a privilege I give once. Never twice.

In my case, the actual damage to my reputation and person is minimal: I don't exist. There is no Edward Morbius, he's a reference to a 1958 film character whose abbreviated username looks vaguely interesting. For someone such as Andi S, it's another story. For some people, this could be career, relationship, or life-ending. Google's inability to grasp just how wrong what they've done is ... is absolutely unconscionable. I really don't get it.

But even for the ordinary person with nothing to fear who'd tried to do what an Andi, or Edward Snowden, or Karen Silkwood, or Deep Throat, or Ai Weiwei, or countless others have done, but simply wishes to keep different aspects of their online activities separated would find their wishes disrespected.

And that's really low.

It's also not isolated. I won't re-cap my other HN comment here, other than to note that the lack of respect shown here seems endemic to G+ generally, and increasingly to Google as a company. Where it once provided useful tools which made my life easier and richer, it increasingly gets in my way and sets up traps. This isn't a good sign.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting that you would hold up reddit as an example of the “positive sociological impact” of anonymity on the internet, when OP specifically describes her desire to avoid “sexist, racist, homophobic, sophomoric, monosyllabic jerks”—precisely the sort of creature that reddit breeds. Though to be fair, the anonymity may not be to blame for reddit’s culture, seeing as other internet forums with similar traditio…

But on reddit you can create an account called "fred_jones" or "slwkajbgj" instead of "Eleanora Rashid-Feldman" and avoid having that behaviour directed at you like a heat-seeking missile. GP is arguing that the douchebags only become a significant problem if your diversity[1] status is tagged to your profile. [1] Women are the majority, so "minority status" => "diversity status"

Women are the majority

This is why I use the term "marginalized groups" rather than "minority". Black people were a majority in apartheid South Africa. But they were marginalized.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#154
post #5
post #3

Why would anyone harass someone who's eating bacon in their profile picture? On the other hand, I think she nailed the description of the typical (90%) YT commenter.

Assuming your question was serious: Because she displays a very minor amount of cleavage in the picture, with a pleasant smile. In other words, her picture is fun and completely unobjectionable. Unfortunately, if that picture is shown outside of her private context it's also liable to generate hordes of crude come-ons from lonely men who see it while browsing Youtube. This is different from a facebook profile picture…

I can't edit my reply, but another comment downstream put it even better than I did:

"Her profile picture is a woman coyly putting something vaguely phallic in her mouth. If it was posted to reddit the slobbering masses would be tripping over themselves to tip their fedoras in her general direction, so imagine what it would be like on YouTube."

Again, a fun, funny photo, in context. In the wilds of Youtube, that will get her plenty of awful comments and come-ons.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#156
I think it's kind of offensive to refer to a product decision by a website as Anschluss; both because it implies Google's leadership are the Nazis, and because it trivializes the actual German/Austrian union (and thus beginning of WW2).

Marginally more offensive than the "co-prosperity sphere" thing pinboardguy did.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on reddit you can create an account called "fred_jones" or "slwkajbgj" instead of "Eleanora Rashid-Feldman" and avoid having that behaviour directed at you like a heat-seeking missile. GP is arguing that the douchebags only become a significant problem if your diversity[1] status is tagged to your profile. [1] Women are the majority, so "minority status" => "diversity status"

> Women are the majority, so "minority status" => "diversity status" Surely, by that reasoning "diversity status" is just as inappropriate a term? If a group is over 50% female, adding one more female will make it less diverse.

"diversity streams" is the term I prefer, since it's about under-representation in specific spheres of activity (which should be more diverse).

This context, internet anonymity, is rather an odd case - we're discussing the advantages of hiding in the crowd, by masking your identity as a member of a stream. I'm still using my preferred language for similar political problems involving the diversity streams, because I think it's the most appropriate nomenclature.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#158
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on reddit you can create an account called "fred_jones" or "slwkajbgj" instead of "Eleanora Rashid-Feldman" and avoid having that behaviour directed at you like a heat-seeking missile. GP is arguing that the douchebags only become a significant problem if your diversity[1] status is tagged to your profile. [1] Women are the majority, so "minority status" => "diversity status"

Women are the majority This is why I use the term "marginalized groups" rather than "minority". Black people were a majority in apartheid South Africa. But they were marginalized.

the context I'm most familiar with is representation (in a profession, in parliament, etc) so we talk positively about making those places more diverse, rather than pointing out the systemic marginalisation (which, for the case of sexism/etc in those contexts, is often subconscious - unlike apartheid.)

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#159

Alternatively, why not think of it this way: If you disagree with what's being done on YouTube, delete your account and move on. Nobody's forcing anyone to comment or maintain a Google account. If you're going to be there, you play by their rules. What's the point in bitching about Google's changes in policy when Google isn't forcing you to use their product and when you can leave when you want to.

A lot of the problem is reneging on previous privacy/data segregation policies. That is an entirely legitimate complaint. There's also the question of to what extent you can opt out in the modern world. Got a mobile phone, pretty much essential to work or life these days? Your life is now beholden to Google or Apple. So "lol just stop using it" is fatuous.

Well said!

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#160
post #120

A comment I left a few weekends ago, which addressed the same topic but before the Youtube/G+ story broke: [0] "Hijacking the top comment to talk about a big concern I have. This EFF article argues that there's a place for Anonymity on the Internet [1], and I think most of us agree (especially if we emphathize with those in Iran, China, Syria, and the like). But what HNers must realize is the following: The mainstrea…

Fucking frustrating that everyday pseudo anonymity gets wrapped up with NSA style information slurping.

If your threat is "The NSA can de-anonymise my online accounts" then you're fucked and very little you can do will protect you.

If your threat is "Some 14 year old fuckwit on YouTube can de-anonymise my online accounts" then it makes a lot of sense to ask Google to stop being such cunts with Google+

Please for the love of christ stop dragging well funded government agencies into every single discussion of online privacy. It's fucking idiotic.

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