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Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

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Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymity is vital for many types of discussions. Can you imagine HN working if people were required to put their name and job titles ? Just because someone works for Microsoft for example does that make their support or criticism of the company any less valuable. Or what about all the political discussions where there could be legitimate fears of reprisal by government agencies.

> Just because someone works for Microsoft for example does that make their support or criticism of the company any less valuable. It does not make it less valuable, but it does change how we interpret it. If I found myself commenting on my current (or previous) workspace, I'd feel obligated to disclose my relationship.

Disclosing your relationship to a company in a comment is a fair sight less than disclosing your identity to that company in the same comment. Particularly if you're a current employee.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because someone works for Microsoft for example does that make their support or criticism of the company any less valuable. It does not make it less valuable, but it does change how we interpret it. If I found myself commenting on my current (or previous) workspace, I'd feel obligated to disclose my relationship.

Disclosing your relationship to a company in a comment is a fair sight less than disclosing your identity to that company in the same comment. Particularly if you're a current employee.

You're right. I was considering these as two separate requirements, didn't really think of the name part.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymity is vital for many types of discussions. Can you imagine HN working if people were required to put their name and job titles ? Just because someone works for Microsoft for example does that make their support or criticism of the company any less valuable. Or what about all the political discussions where there could be legitimate fears of reprisal by government agencies.

> Just because someone works for Microsoft for example does that make their support or criticism of the company any less valuable. It does not make it less valuable, but it does change how we interpret it. If I found myself commenting on my current (or previous) workspace, I'd feel obligated to disclose my relationship.

It's so much more than this, though. Even if you're ethically obligated to disclose your relationship with your workplace when discussing said workplace, are you ethically/legally obligated to connect your identity to your views on education policy, or on criminal incarceration, or on musical genres, or on the future of a programming language that happens to be your boss's favorite programming language? To reduce it to company criticism is to create a straw man out of the entire case for anonymity.

Now, all this said, I fully expect to be "doxxed" publicly at some point on my various accounts, so I keep that in mind when making commentary, and I hedge my bets. The fact that it was Google that has prevented me from discussing things on YouTube without doxxing myself, though, is truly disappointing. Maybe they're not losing any money by losing commenters like me, but if I'm ever inspired to create viral content that could make ad money, Vimeo's getting that ad money now.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#114
Maybe Google is trying to do us a favor, and spare us the illusion of anonymity when true anonymity is dead. That's my most charitable interpretation. Less charitably, they simply don't care how their policies happen to burn x% of their user base: "we'll you probably shouldn't be active online if you can't deal with a few stalkers."

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#115
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think everyone has to leave Google for you to have productive anonymous discussions. For what it's worth, I think reputations (under anonymous usenames) are A very important component in having accountability and quality in discussions.

http://www.ponychan.net/chan/dis/res/75296.html#75350

To those tempted to downvote/report for the domain name and its connotations, the linked comment is actually insightful. I'll copy-paste an excerpt here to archive/make this available to viewers who might not want to click; please direct any upvotes to the parent.

> I do think there's some truth to the idea that anonymity can put more focus on content than the creator. If you make something that's good enough to get you a decent-sized fanbase, and you use a recognizable identity, people are more likely to be forgiving of weaker work you make in the future. If an online community already has recognized favorite content creators, that also makes it extremely hard for new people to come in and get recognized for their own content. Basically, a community based in anonymity can override the whole "argument from authority" fallacy, because no one has any authority. Anonymity is an equalizer. It can even benefit people who would normally do well even with an identity, because it leaves them free to experiment without being criticized for deviating from their earlier work.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#116
What I am not getting here is this. I get why people may want to be anonymous. Google says - no can do, you can not be anonymous with us. We insist on identifying you. Why keep using Google services and complain instead of using some other service more respectful of one's privacy? It's not like one cannot live without commenting on youtube videos.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#117
post #116

What I am not getting here is this. I get why people may want to be anonymous. Google says - no can do, you can not be anonymous with us. We insist on identifying you. Why keep using Google services and complain instead of using some other service more respectful of one's privacy? It's not like one cannot live without commenting on youtube videos.

>>Google says - no can do, you can not be anonymous with us.

Where does Google say that? Is it as direct as you put it, or is it to be inferred from a constantly changing variety of experiences with Google services and settings?

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#118
I am very positive this would be the perfect moment to start a kickstarer funded youtube clone! Yea, glad I inspired your next big project, thank me later! (But please don't forget to... I know you won't if you are a good hacker. I am not in the position to dedicate any time/resources to this project. Please ask me for some contact info when you are sure you will be diving into this. Please do it, and... good luck!)

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#119
post #116

What I am not getting here is this. I get why people may want to be anonymous. Google says - no can do, you can not be anonymous with us. We insist on identifying you. Why keep using Google services and complain instead of using some other service more respectful of one's privacy? It's not like one cannot live without commenting on youtube videos.

>>Google says - no can do, you can not be anonymous with us. Where does Google say that? Is it as direct as you put it, or is it to be inferred from a constantly changing variety of experiences with Google services and settings?

It says it by their actions which are not conductive to one's anonymity - real name policy, etc. It is clear that they goal is for users to have their real-life identity to be linked to their Google identity. Which may be not what the user desires - but that just means the product Google is selling is not for this user.

Re: Dear Googles: G+/YouTube Anschluss – you've done outed me

#120
A comment I left a few weekends ago, which addressed the same topic but before the Youtube/G+ story broke: [0]

"Hijacking the top comment to talk about a big concern I have. This EFF article argues that there's a place for Anonymity on the Internet [1], and I think most of us agree (especially if we emphathize with those in Iran, China, Syria, and the like).

But what HNers must realize is the following: The mainstream Internet can not become the Tor-visited Dark-Net (which restores anonymity) that many believe is inevitable WITHOUT losing its positive sociological impact. Sites like Reddit, Twitter, even HN rely on anonymity and also provide a great deal of such value. Here's a simple example of 'sociological impact': CNN (FoxNews, etc) pays attention to what the top links on Reddit are, because the site is in the public's face -- and: the people have a collective voice.

Next: Without the perception of anonymity, sites like Reddit will stop flourishing.

Let's go deeper: Reddit's culture thrives on "anonymity" in the form of throwaway accounts and people being themselves without representing themselves. Throwaway accounts (heard of 'Cation Bot' or 'AWildSketchAppeared'?) are a form of expression unique to environments which allow for anonymity (pseudonyms). Who's to say novelty accounts would be as risque or hilarious without anonymity? Certainly these sites flourish because users feel comfortable playing a part and taking a chance.

There are two issues at play which threaten anonymity on Reddit. Now obvious (in light of Snowden's leaks): 1.) Reddit usernames can, and probably are, being mapped to peoples' actual identity. ... Not as obvious: 2.) Users' up and down votes, even private messages, can also be sniffed with ease.

Reddit's' devteam has retreated from the idea of providing HTTPS for its voting/web API [2], so people's actions (aside from comments) can be mapped as well. I tried to raise awareness of this issue five months ago [3]. I know there's an argument to be made that SSL/HTTPS is useless anyway (just use Tor!, they say), but the bigger question remains:

Can a mainstream community such as Reddit exist in tomorrow's Internet? I'd say that such web-societies are fragile -- likely targets of dragnet surveillance and subversion, especially given their disruptive nature.

People and the press are paranoid about Facebook/Google privacy because its users (are encouraged to) identify themselves explicitly, but the reality is no different with sites like Reddit - just the perception. Just think about how much more is shared on a site like Reddit by its members because of their pseudonyms! Few people aside from the avid Tor-using//r/netsec crowd have realized this.

Reddit is the internet "as we know it," and I feel the Internet is about to change.

In hindsight - Google's initial "no pseudonyms" policy for Google+ was prescient -- though the company eventually capitulated to popular demand for them. [4] Perhaps they wished to save each of us the unsavory realization that aliases exist in name-only (pun intended). :/"

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6652909 [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/10/online-anonymity-not-o... [2] http://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/l4n6y/reddit_chan... [3] http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1n73s0/again_reddit... [4] http://www.ibtimes.com/google-allowing-nicknames-pseudonyms-...

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