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Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#101

Post by adambard »

brianobush wrote: post #45
busterarm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

scratch off point d. Helmets don't really do anything to protect you unless you practically fall off your bike standing still. I've seen brains on the street from at least two low-speed bike accidents where the cyclist was wearing a helmet. Also, it's not that all cyclists are disobeying the law. Those are just the ones you choose to see. Drivers and pedestrians alike just aren't looking. I always obey traffic laws o…

Helmets protect you. I slid down a street and my head bounced on the pavement - without a helmet I would have been much worse off. The road rash was enough. Another incident was a truck mirror that grazed my helmet. Nothing major, but in all, the helmet does its job.

> Another incident was a truck mirror that grazed my helmet.

Of course, if you weren't wearing the helmet, the truck mirror may or may not have touched you at all.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#102

Post by 001sky »

chockablock wrote: post #52
kika wrote: post #17

No, it is not. But it is also not OK to prevent cyclists to kill themselves by car. I've witnessed an accident recently when the car in front of me hit a cyclist. He was: a) riding at night without lights b) running red light c) against the traffic d) without a helmet I'd say this guy (Stanford student, which IMHO implies some intellect) could serve as an encyclopedic definition of our Bay Area cyclist. Cyclists who…

Quite unfair. When I commuted by bike in SF for a couple years, I wore hi-vis clothing, front and rear lights even when it wasn't dark yet (especially at dusk!), and stuck to designated bike routes with calmer traffic when possible. And every day I saw hundreds of other cyclists just like me who didn't have a death wish. The (small-y) yahoos who ride dangerously certainly stand out more, but it's depressing to have f…

SF has problems with people running lights and stop signs because of the hills. I think its dis-ingenuous to deny this. It may be different in soma/mission, where the topography is completely different. But in the financial district (lots of 1 ways, no left turns, hills, tourists, etc) and around market street...the whole industry of bike messengers (ie, 30 years of history) is predicated on them not following traffic rules. Actually, that might be a little strong. But you get my point. They make money because they are faster...and the way to be faster than traffic is not not go with the flow.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#103

Post by kyledrake »

FreakyT wrote: post #97
kyledrake wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FreakyT, if I ever see you in the street, I'm going to run you over for getting in my way. And it will be called an accident. I do not understand why it is so hard for people to understand this problem, but I've given up hope ever describing it in Internet comments. In the interim, if you ever want to get away with murder, use a car.

That'll teach me a lesson! Seriously though, he said that he was getting run over, he said he was being passed by in a dangerously close way. Have you ever tried to pass a cyclist on a two-lane road without a shoulder? You'll find it's extremely difficult.

Then slow down and wait until it's safe to pass. What could you possibly be doing that is more important than endangering someone's life? Do you understand that the cyclist has a legal right to be there, and that the reason for that legal right is safety?

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#104

Post by busterarm »

3825 wrote: post #88
fphhotchips wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Bicycles belong on sidewalks far more than they belong on roads. That said, perhaps it's situational. My city has large amounts of arterial roads with heavy car traffic and sparse pedestrians. The speed limit on those roads is about 60 kph (about 40 mph), and I much prefer to stay off them as a cyclist. It would be much safer if I was allowed to cycle on the sidewalk in those areas, as there's little to n…

One of the first things my driving instructor taught me is that you have to assert your right. A measly bicycle has as much right to be on the road as a Cadillac Escalade. At the risk of preaching to the choir, a bicycle should take up a full lane on the road unless there is a special bicycle lane. I am not saying go crazy and ride your bicycles on freeways. This is more about city streets. That being said, I truly b…

Cycling on highways I'm pretty sure is illegal everywhere, thankfully.

I'm also an advocate of taking up a full lane, but the laws in many places (like New York) actually require you to ride to the right/shoulder where feasible. Unfortunately that's not really clearly defined, so even though you have a legal right to a full lane, cops will still give you a ticket.

Having narrowly avoided being doored a few times, I won't ride anywhere within a foot's range of a completely open car door.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#105

Post by tsotha »

jbl wrote: post #83
tsotha wrote: post #12

>So here’s my proposal: Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere... Hahahahaha. I see a flaw in this plan. I don't see why the author views a lack of criminal charges as evidence of some kind of travesty of justice. If a cyclist gets run down by someone who didn't see him, that's an accident, not a crime.

The problem is that "I didn't see the cyclist" becomes a catch-all excuse that law-enforcement takes at face value. This leads to an implicit (though not acknowledged or stated) assumption that a driver cannot be at fault in a driver/cyclist ahem interaction. I commute to work by bike every day, and every day I watch drivers with their heads down texting, fiddling with the radio, spaced out, or just plain aggressive.…

I'm pretty sure if the cops knew someone was texting when he hit a cyclist he would get charged with something serious. But I'm not sure how you'd go about proving that's the case in the absence of witnesses. It's not unreasonable to take "I didn't see the cyclist" at face value if you don't have any evidence to the contrary - that's just a presumption of innocence.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#106

Post by skelsey »

hetman wrote: post #100
mikeash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't remember the last time I saw a car run a red light that wasn't just squeaking by a yellow. I can remember the last time I saw a bicycle do this, it was yesterday and the guy didn't even pretend to stop or care as he obstructed traffic that had the right of way. And not to mention that I see roughly one thousand times (literally) more cars than bicycles on the road. I don't doubt that there is a lot of confirm…

In the other hand see a car do it on a weekly basis where as I can't remember the last time a bicycle did it (and in the few cases I saw it, there was no obstruction of traffic and in fact they were getting a head start to allow traffic to flow more smoothly). So now that we have these disparate anecdotes what happens next?

> I can't remember the last time a bicycle did it (and in the few cases I saw it...

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#107

Post by busterarm »

adambard wrote: post #101
brianobush wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helmets protect you. I slid down a street and my head bounced on the pavement - without a helmet I would have been much worse off. The road rash was enough. Another incident was a truck mirror that grazed my helmet. Nothing major, but in all, the helmet does its job.

> Another incident was a truck mirror that grazed my helmet. Of course, if you weren't wearing the helmet, the truck mirror may or may not have touched you at all.

This. I saw a bus mirror actually catch a guy's helmet and pick him up off his bike by his head, hauling him down the street.

Had he not been wearing a helmet, that never would have happened.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#108

Post by tsotha »

CookWithMe wrote: post #80
tsotha wrote: post #12

>So here’s my proposal: Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere... Hahahahaha. I see a flaw in this plan. I don't see why the author views a lack of criminal charges as evidence of some kind of travesty of justice. If a cyclist gets run down by someone who didn't see him, that's an accident, not a crime.

If a child gets run down by someone who didn't see him... ...an investigation will be launched to find out whether it was an accident (i.e. child did jump in front of car) or a crime (i.e. driver was texting, easily could have spotted child). Similarly, an investigation should be launched if someone runs down a cyclist. Could be the cyclists fault (i.e. running a red light) or the drivers fault (i.e. running down a c…

Why do you assume that doesn't happen?

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#109

Post by tbrownaw »

MikusR wrote: post #66
nick2 wrote: post #28

I don't understand how people can ride bicycles on public roads along side cars and trucks. The average driver is highly incompetent. Most people don't get proper training how to drive. A lot of people are very distracted with talking on cell phones or eating while driving. Heavy objects moving at high speeds can be very dangerous.

I don't understand how people can walk on public sidewalks along bicyclists that ignore all traffic rules and drive wherever they like. The average cyclist is highly incompetent. Most people don't get any training at all. A lot of people are very distracted with talking on cell phones or listening to music with headphones while cycling. Bicycles moving at high speeds can be very dangerous to pedestrians that are walk…

I would imagine that it's related to how getting run over by a bicycle tends to be somewhat less fatal that getting run over by a car.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#110

Post by busterarm »

Joeboy wrote: post #92
FreakyT wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've answered your own question. Why would people be upset when you've ignored the lane provided for you and instead decided to slow traffic to a grinding halt by taking up an entire lane? Certainly, it's unfortunate that the bike lane is poorly maintained, but to wholly place the blame on the drivers strikes me as questionable.

> Why would people be upset when you've ignored the lane provided for you and instead decided to slow traffic to a grinding halt by taking up an entire lane? Perhaps people could recognize that the existence of a cycle lane does not necessarily mean that it's safe or even physically possible to cycle within its boundaries.

Given how many cops and taxis park in bike lanes and how many cars use bike lanes as turning lanes, yes, emphatically this.
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