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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#141

Post by sokoloff »

hackula1 wrote: post #124
wallio wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust us we have really good reasons and arguments but we just can't tell you. lol

Also, we will lie about what we are actually doing. I can understand taking some drastic measures to prevent epic disaster, however, I see no good reason to cover up what is actually going on; threats and countermeasures. By lying, they are forcing us to assume the worst.

And if you assume the worst, they don't (and shouldn't) care. This isn't a popularity contest for them, and the NSA operates as if there is a legitimate national security purpose to what they're doing.

I don't like the fact that they're doing it, but presuming that they should operate in total transparency just so that the silicon valley "proper thinkers" won't assume the worst is fairly naive, IMO. They believe they're fighting a critical intelligence war, and secrecy is an integral and necessary part of that battle.

I wouldn't work there, but I respect the people who do, both for their technical ability and for their patriotism. (I may not agree, but I can respect.) In particular, they're making significant individual sacrifices in order to do the work they do. It's not the same sacrifice as doing IED patrol in Afghanistan, but anyone doing high level crypto for NSA could likely make more money and have a cushier life in the private sector.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#142

Post by Zigurd »

tptacek wrote: post #34
duairc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities. And they're right. You don't need to play devil's advocate. The devil has enough advocates.

EXTERMINATE ALL RATIONAL THOUGHT. Questions are not allowed. Consideration is not allowed. Context is not allowed. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

So, let's hear your defense of this. EDIT: Well since you have the power to channel the mind of the beltway security gnome, let's hear their defense of it.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#143

Post by Apocryphon »

nashequilibrium wrote: post #77
angersock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extensive surveillance didn't do a thing to save that man, and future surveillance won't bring his legs back. More people have suffered in Gitmo than were injured in the Boston attack, and more people died from drone strikes than when the towers fell.

Did you see the guys youtube videos? Russia contacted the U.S. about one of the brothers, also the FBI did track that he was going to Russia and also interviewd him. They failed in not being able to act on the intelligence they had. The question is what are you willing to give up to go to that LA Laker game without worrying about terrorism or whether your parents will get home safely from the game. I am not trying to…

That also happened in "American History X", more or less. I'm not sure if basing foreign policy on Hollywood movies is the best idea.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#144

Post by Zigurd »

nether wrote: post #74
sharkweek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

> I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. Because losing their job and being charged with a felony for breaking a TS clearance is totally worth doing that for you. The NSA isn't a startup in stealthmode. I can guarantee you that some HNers know NSAers, and no doubt many HNers are NSAers, but there are very strong reasons why the…

We already have mountains of evidence that government secrecy is 99.999% trivial and petty. It's there to protect against embarassment, not terrorism.

Read the Wikileaks documents. Triviality. Small-thinking. Nonstrategic low-value goals being pursued. The diplomatic equivalent of spam. Read it, and you will be convinced there is no bear in the woods, no boogie man under your bed that the NSA can't tell you about.

And that last 0.0001%? We can afford that price for freedom. Total transparency won't hurt America at all.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#145

Post by Karunamon »

DanBC wrote: post #129
Oculus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the whole 'don't host in US'-thing. It doesn't make sense. The NSA/US gov made it clear that they have WAY less regard for foreign privacy vs. US privacy. If all major services move their data centres/servers overseas the NSA will do the exact same thing only this time they won't be dealing with spying on Americans issues as they're targeting overseas companies.

> I don't understand the whole 'don't host in US'-thing. It doesn't make sense. By hosting in the US (or with something that the US claims jurisdiction over) you leave yourself open to other US agencies getting access, sometimes with valid legal documentation, or by just seizing the servers. There's nothing you can do to stop the NSA having access, so you may as well assume that they've got it anyway. If you're worri…

Not hosting in the US removes an attack vector, and a particularly nasty one. If I have to choose between being spied on passively, or having armed thugs with guns come in, ransack my house, and steal my equipment with the hosting provider's blessing.. well, you can see where I'm going with this.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#146

Post by Zigurd »

tptacek wrote: post #43
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Most are members of the overwhelming majority of software developers who do not participate in online forums like HN, which is a reason they may seem alien to you.

You are claiming some "silent majority" is with you. And you are doing it in a forum that contains a lot of thought leaders. Color me unconvinced.

This is utterly the same as the people who claimed reddit was irrelevant until reddit readership got to be some huge percentage (70M, about the same as Pinterest) of the population.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#147

Post by jlgaddis »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

> Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out?

Much (most?) of it is compartmented. One engineer is only working on a small piece of the whole system and almost never is aware of the scope of the entire project.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#148

Post by jlgaddis »

jamoes wrote: post #88
mikeyouse wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do. It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the…

It could also be that they're former "hackers" that were caught and turned into informants/employees/slaves in exchange for their eventual freedom. An example of this is Sabu ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabu_%28hacktivist%29 ), who would have been sentenced to 124 years in prison, but instead decided to work for the FBI.

Sabu, for example, would almost certainly not be granted a clearance, even at the classified (lowest) level.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#149

Post by ape4 »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

When I was in college, the spy agencies were around recruiting. I said no!

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#150

Post by Zigurd »

jumby wrote: post #73
OvidNaso wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not one of those reasons, except the last, has anything to do with a vast majority of the revelations about what the NSA is doing that has people up in arms. And the only legitimate argument about protecting against terrorism, people are starting to realize that the threat is miniscule and is amplified due to cognitive interpretations of data.

Every one of those reasons (and likely many more we don't know about) is why the NSA is doing what they do.

You did read that the NSA trains their people to shout "9/11!" when questioned about the need for what they do? Or did you not get the joke about the cow?
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