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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#121

Post by clienthunter »

Cookingboy wrote: post #31
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

I would argue that this point is irrelevant. The leaked materials have shown complete disregard for the spirit of the law and the spirit of not being an asshole (see smiley-SSL-breaking-trollface): questioning the motives of those involved is not just acceptable but necessary.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#122

Post by jscn »

derefr wrote: post #86
Phlarp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible reason. These men were the definition of the type of thing a system like this should catch. intelligence agencies had been warned about one of them multiple times and they were both using the internet to self radicalize. The fact that the Boston bombings still happened should be proof enough that these systems either A) Do not work or B) are not being used against this type of threat. If it isn't i…

Or... the system catches things like this all the time, this is just one that slipped through, and if the system wasn't in place, there would be many, many more incidents of this type. Maybe. (This is normally "bear-repellent amulet" type thinking, but I think there's a specific exemption in this case, in that there are good reasons why you'd see no evidence of the system's effectiveness: the government doesn't like…

> the government doesn't like to get the public riled up by terrorist threats

I'm quite sure that's exactly what the government likes to do. That's the very reason that "terrorism" is in the headlines as much as it is: it serves the government by allowing them to extend their powers and budgets enormously. Feed scary stories about "terrorism" to an uncritical public and they'll beg you to take away their "freedom" in exchange for greater "security".

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#123

Post by m0nastic »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

I live in DC, and work intel-community adjacent in the infosec industry. I'll stipulate up front that I've never worked as a government employee, and despite doing some assessment work (like being hired to break into the Department of the Interior without their knowledge, or breaking hardware/software that was being deployed in far away places) everywhere I've worked has tried very hard to steer clear of government work (not for any ethical reasons, it just pays much worse than equivalent commercial work, and is almost always boring). In fact, the last two places I worked had distinct government and commercial divisions (where I ran the commercial divisions).

That said, I've built and run several security consulting practices in the DC area, and consequently have done hiring interviews for dozens of people who were NSA employees (1 of which we ended up hiring). Absolutely none of them have even the slightest apprehension about the nature of the work they were doing (so much as they were able to comment about it during interviews).

In fact, prior to the Snowden leaks, the NSA was pretty much at the bottom of my list for government agencies doing shit I disliked. They have a pretty clear scope and charter (which we've come to learn has been muddied).

But no one I've talked to, either who works there or works at a contractor in the DIB, thinks they've done anything wrong. Did you read those batshit NSA talking points that came out yesterday from Al Jazeera's FOIA request? They believe those things.

They think they're doing important, valuable work to protect the country. I can only imagine that internally within NSA there has been dissent about some of the stuff that's come out. Maybe people have resigned over it, maybe they've sent strongly-worded emails to their bosses. I really hope there was a great deal of dissent about the "intentionally fuck up crypto standards that we push to other branches of the government", but I doubt we'll ever hear much about it.

Your questions could just as easily refer to people who work on SEO spam, or targeted advertisements (I'm not saying those things are equivalent, but they're also jobs I've heard people on here posturing morally about).

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#124

Post by hackula1 »

wallio wrote: post #84
nether wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. Because losing their job and being charged with a felony for breaking a TS clearance is totally worth doing that for you. The NSA isn't a startup in stealthmode. I can guarantee you that some HNers know NSAers, and no doubt many HNers are NSAers, but there are very strong reasons why the…

Trust us we have really good reasons and arguments but we just can't tell you. lol

Also, we will lie about what we are actually doing. I can understand taking some drastic measures to prevent epic disaster, however, I see no good reason to cover up what is actually going on; threats and countermeasures. By lying, they are forcing us to assume the worst.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#125

Post by benched »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

This is going to be mostly speculation. There are a couple of members of my family who work in government. I've had long conversations with them in which my goal was to understand their distinctive point of view. A few things stand out to me. They speak as proud members of a larger ethos that very obviously has a separate existence. They see themselves first as part of this big something. As a loner, mercenary programmer, I can barely comprehend that kind of belonging to something. And it isn't at all that they can't think for themselves. These people are brilliant, highly educated, and can debate their views intelligently for hours. But still, they are part of this enormous establishment that has an identity, a way of thinking, a way of living, a way of being, and specific things it cares about. It's more like this: imagine that you had a really good, strong, close family. They make up a large part of your life. Together, you form a culture, with traditions, favorite things and places. You agree about most things. That's how it seems with these people in my family, except that 'family' is huge, and it's the government.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#126

Post by hackula1 »

salgernon wrote: post #52
JimboOmega wrote: post #4

"Now, Silicon Valley needs to join them." - because we otherwise approve of the snooping, but for this latest outrage? I'm honestly wondering - what's the other side of this? Who's defending and explaining this? I have not seen an article that "takes the other side" in some time, and that might be a result of the echo chamber that is the bay area... Or it might be the result of an "intelligence community" that really…

I periodically check out websites that traditionally have a bias other than my own and ran across this: http://www.redstate.com/2013/10/30/tech-at-night-even-dianne... Whats ironic is that these folks call Snowden a traitor, putting them in the same camp as a Democratic Senator from the other side of the isle. I also find it funny that many of the ads on that site are for perpetual motion / free energy machines...

I find this similar to the endless push to buy gold from people who are supposed to be the exemplars of common sense economics.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#127

Post by Oculus »

tomphoolery wrote: post #99
mikeyouse wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do. It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the…

My only real fear is that some of these less-legitimate surveillance practices will discourage US companies from forming and people using US-hosted services, which would be a major blow to the United States' already volatile economy. The tech industry is the only industry that is/was actually doing well during the recession, and now our government is behaving dangerously with the trust that many international firms h…

I don't understand the whole 'don't host in US'-thing. It doesn't make sense. The NSA/US gov made it clear that they have WAY less regard for foreign privacy vs. US privacy. If all major services move their data centres/servers overseas the NSA will do the exact same thing only this time they won't be dealing with spying on Americans issues as they're targeting overseas companies.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#128

Post by [deleted] »

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

[deleted]

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#129

Post by DanBC »

Oculus wrote: post #127
tomphoolery wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only real fear is that some of these less-legitimate surveillance practices will discourage US companies from forming and people using US-hosted services, which would be a major blow to the United States' already volatile economy. The tech industry is the only industry that is/was actually doing well during the recession, and now our government is behaving dangerously with the trust that many international firms h…

I don't understand the whole 'don't host in US'-thing. It doesn't make sense. The NSA/US gov made it clear that they have WAY less regard for foreign privacy vs. US privacy. If all major services move their data centres/servers overseas the NSA will do the exact same thing only this time they won't be dealing with spying on Americans issues as they're targeting overseas companies.

> I don't understand the whole 'don't host in US'-thing. It doesn't make sense.

By hosting in the US (or with something that the US claims jurisdiction over) you leave yourself open to other US agencies getting access, sometimes with valid legal documentation, or by just seizing the servers.

There's nothing you can do to stop the NSA having access, so you may as well assume that they've got it anyway. If you're worries about a targeted attack from NSA you're toast anyway, and if you're worries about them slurping the data - well, they're going to do it, so you can try to use encryption and hope everyone communicating with you is also encrypting. Obviously, this leaves you with metadata, which the NSA is also slurping.

But I agree that people saying "don't host in the US" seem to have it backwards quite often.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#130

Post by jonknee »

Oculus wrote: post #127
tomphoolery wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only real fear is that some of these less-legitimate surveillance practices will discourage US companies from forming and people using US-hosted services, which would be a major blow to the United States' already volatile economy. The tech industry is the only industry that is/was actually doing well during the recession, and now our government is behaving dangerously with the trust that many international firms h…

I don't understand the whole 'don't host in US'-thing. It doesn't make sense. The NSA/US gov made it clear that they have WAY less regard for foreign privacy vs. US privacy. If all major services move their data centres/servers overseas the NSA will do the exact same thing only this time they won't be dealing with spying on Americans issues as they're targeting overseas companies.

It's not for protection from root kits and submarines hacking into fiber, it's for the National Security letters that require companies to spy on their customers and prohibit admitting it.
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