Only a few countries are teaching children how to think • Hacker News Board

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#111

Post by jacques_chester » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:16 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #90

collyw wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a number of good friends who are teachers, including maths, and they talk about it a lot. While you may not think your system is good, it sounds like the UK system is encouraging mediocrity. For example, when I was at school 20 years ago, we had to memorise formulas for common thing ( speed = distance over time, and similar). Apparently the kids are given the formulas in exams now. There doesn't appear to be s…

I have also memorised the formulas for d/s/t and f/a/p but struggle to see how these translate in to academic excellence of any type, or even why giving them to someone is encouraging mediocrity. There is (imho) nothing of value in memorizing simple formulas, and everything in the value of knowing how and when to apply those formulas, or where to Google for them.

The presumption that students have memorised the formulae allows you to build more complex tests with confidence that they will tease out understanding and not just computation.

In my highschool physics exam, about 2/3rds was of questions based on memorised formulae. For example, the bouncing ball problem, with a series of questions to tease out our application of calculus, memorisation of compression rules and so on.

Then comes the final question. I remember it well because at first, I did not know which formula to apply. Water wells into a pool at rate X per hour, falls over a waterfall into a second pool below, which drains at rate Y per hour. When it falls over the edge of the waterfall, the water is at temperature A; at the start of the problem the temperature in the bottom pool is C.

After an hour, what will the temperature in the second pool be?

To solve this problem you actually need to consider the thermic effect of water falling. You need to build a single equation to accounts for acceleration due to gravity and the beginning temperatures of each pool. Then you need some calculus to transform it into an equation that will spit out the final numerical answer.

The only reason I was able to attempt and solve this problem was because I had memorised the equations. There simply would not have been enough time to try to reverse-engineer a bunch of anonymous letters in-flight.

Similarly, when I studied law, all exams were open-book. This is because, as a law professor told me, "it lets us ask harder questions". There's simply no way to synthesise thousands of pages of material in an exam setting. Either you learnt it beforehand, including a whole bunch of flat out memorisation of details of cases, or you didn't. Having your casebooks for reference is useful, but only to check a detail or reuse a quote.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#112

Post by consultant23522 » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:20 PM UTC

I'm an American so I'm probably biased.. but what I've found is that in most school districts you can get as good of an education as you want. I grew up in South Carolina and went to high/secondary school in Florida.. two states with relatively poor education records.

However, by staying on the "right" path I was able to get in advanced programs, programs for students with high IQs that taught critical thinking skills.. I graduated high school with over 30 college credit hours and had completed Physics 1, Calc 1, 2, and 3, and a hand full of other electives... all in high school.

Other students in the same exact schools I attended had equal and opposite educational experiences/success.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#113

Post by mathattack » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:28 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

My 2 cents... Being able to question your education system is a sign that you're doing something right. I hated my (good public) high school. I could write pages and pages of things they did wrong.

Then I went to college. Most of the people praised their high schools. I really felt that my school must have been at the bottom of the heap. As soon as the first set of grades started coming out, I realized how much better prepared I was than everyone else. The people pushed through "Rah Rah, aren't we great!" factories lacked critical thinking. But their schools did have great basketball teams and marching bands.

When someone pitches how awesome their educational was, I wonder where their critical thinking is.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#114

Post by smtddr » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:33 PM UTC

Jd wrote: post #110

tokenadult wrote: post #106

The review of Amanda Ripley's new book Smartest Kids in the World by Annie Murphy Paul in the New York Times [1] is a good reality check on the review from The Economist kindly posted here. The book is in hot demand in my county library system, so my request for the book hasn't been filled yet. The other excerpts from the book I have seen online have been very good. I have lived overseas and observed the effect of an…

I don't see why Americans should be able to discuss education policy in Polish. Seems a non sequitur. I don't think the author of the book claimed to be able to do such anyways. As for technological over-reliance, I take that as given. I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad. To me this is one of the strengths of the US system.…

> I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad.

I think it's bad too, and here's why: The teachers & staff in charge of the less-performers will do less to help them. Won't push them as hard. Generally just not care(as much). I think it's better for the under-performers to see the strong-performers and understand those kids are not magically-smarter, they just work hard and it's completely possible for the under-performers to be like them if they try to mimic their study habits.

Once you divide a group between the "desired" and "non-desired" traits, there's no way the less desired people will get the same quality attention as the desired. It pretty much will turn into: Group them all together, then systematically eliminate them, condemn them or make them irrelevant. Basically, that segregation will become the solution itself:

"We need to get class-A performance up to get more funding or raise our GPA average so our Class-A looks better to those affluent parents to send their kids to! Hmm, billy & mandy aren't too bright and are lowering the average. We could help them to be better, or we could just move them to the Class-C group; thus eliminating their scores from Class-A's GPA average."

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#115

Post by ye » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 1:44 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I think you are confusing "how to think" with "what to think".

"How to think" shouldn't interfere with thinking for themselves.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#116

Post by JackFr » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 2:00 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #113

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

My 2 cents... Being able to question your education system is a sign that you're doing something right. I hated my (good public) high school. I could write pages and pages of things they did wrong. Then I went to college. Most of the people praised their high schools. I really felt that my school must have been at the bottom of the heap. As soon as the first set of grades started coming out, I realized how much bette…

Critical thinking is important, but only in so far as you know something. Its extraordinarily disappointing to be engaging someone in a discussion and while their logic and rhetoric are solid, he doesn't know that (1) Japan is an island; (2) the US and the Soviet Union were allies in WWII;

[Note -- those were two different people in two different conversations.]

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#117

Post by tixocloud » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 2:14 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #76

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I have a number of good friends who are teachers, including maths, and they talk about it a lot. While you may not think your system is good, it sounds like the UK system is encouraging mediocrity. For example, when I was at school 20 years ago, we had to memorise formulas for common thing ( speed = distance over time, and similar). Apparently the kids are given the formulas in exams now. There doesn't appear to be s…

It's the same sort of situation in Malaysia. There was a stark contrast in terms of educational methods after I moved to Canada. I was used to memorizing a lot of facts so thinking critically and asking questions was a big leap for me. I did well in high school tests because I was used to all the standardized exams back in Malaysia but I had to really pluck up my courage to raise my hands, be more outspoken and develop my own viewpoints.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#118

Post by mhurron » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #76

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I have a number of good friends who are teachers, including maths, and they talk about it a lot. While you may not think your system is good, it sounds like the UK system is encouraging mediocrity. For example, when I was at school 20 years ago, we had to memorise formulas for common thing ( speed = distance over time, and similar). Apparently the kids are given the formulas in exams now. There doesn't appear to be s…

> Apparently the kids are given the formulas in exams now.

I don't see a problem with that. Memorizing formula is as useful as memorizing anything else, it's not very useful and not a measure of knowledge. Knowing how to use the formula, how to manipulate them, are what they are supposed to be being taught.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#119

Post by Jd » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 2:23 PM UTC

smtddr wrote: post #114

Jd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why Americans should be able to discuss education policy in Polish. Seems a non sequitur. I don't think the author of the book claimed to be able to do such anyways. As for technological over-reliance, I take that as given. I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad. To me this is one of the strengths of the US system.…

> I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad. I think it's bad too, and here's why: The teachers & staff in charge of the less-performers will do less to help them. Won't push them as hard. Generally just not care(as much). I think it's better for the under-performers to see the strong-performers and understand those kids are not…

So do you think that the US higher-ed system is inherently flawed also, with competition between high achievers (i.e. Harvard) and schools that anyone can get into? It's true that there are more resources associated with success, but doesn't that also incentivize people to work harder to end up in the higher bracket? I don't see the "Class-C" problem as necessarily a problem, so long as the person in "Class-C" has the opportunity to get back to Class-A by putting in the appropriate work.

My own feeling (having also observed higher ed in Europe and Asia and other places) is that the US system works better for cultivating high achievement, but less well at making sure that lower achievers maintain a certain level of quality. This means that there is more spread over the bell curve and less in the center. Europeans, on the other hand, seem to prefer more clustering in the center of the bell curve.

This is equally true for wealth acquisition, btw, with Europeans generally preferring not to have extremes (i.e. extremely high wage earners or extremely low wage earners).

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#120

Post by Jtsummers » Fri, Oct 18, 2013, 2:28 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #78

polskibus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand I'd agree with you, on the other Poles whine a lot and need a lot of appreciation from others to believe in themselves. I have worked with many people educated in other countries in similar age as mine. We compared our educational experience - many admitted that in terms of scope, PL education seemed much better - more in-depth courses, more interesting problems solved during studies, etc. I'd say that yo…

I can't compare recent advances in educational systems, but I do have pretty good knowledge of at least what used to happen in high schools in the US and of schools and a technical university in France. The conclusions I'd draw (and mind you, this is knowledge from ~15-20 years ago, and it is my knowledge and my opinions): * Polish high school students indeed know more and are better at problem solving than most US h…

the US approach of "if the answer has one too many significant digit, it is wrong and you get zero points" is virtually unknown in Poland and comes as a shock to Polish students, who are often taught that "it is the approach that counts". I find the US approach much more realistic: it doesn't matter how you "approached" the design of a bridge, if the bridge collapsed.

My problem with this all-or-nothing approach to grading, you aren't designing a bridge in a 2 hour exam with a graphing calculator and pencil and 3 sheets of scratch paper. These aren't representative of real world situations, engineering rarely operates under that sort of time crunch. Apollo 13 is an exception, but by that point it isn't novices but experts doing the work, experts who'd studied the physics and math for years, if not decades. This approach is used to weed out students from programs that admit too many to their freshman classes. They should reduce their class size if this is so important. Many upper-level undergraduate courses, and a lot of graduate courses, don't even expect the sort of time-crunched, mental feats expected from freshman level calculus and physics students.