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Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

economist.com

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Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#101

Post by walshemj »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #39
clavalle wrote: post #8

> the company is struggling to find Okies with the skills to fill even its most basic factory jobs. Such posts require workers to think critically Perhaps those educated enough to think critically put that skill to work before accepting a factory job making mass produced biscuits. My critical thinking skills lead me to guess that is not the most fulfilling, high paying, or upwardly mobile job even for Oklahoma.

I am sure that company wants those engaged in its lowest paid repetitive tasks to be critical thinkers. They might sit there, thinking critically, and realise that skill-shortage is economic new-speak for "wage-shortage". Everyone wants a ferrari, no one wants to pay for it. This doesn't mean there is a ferrari-shortage. Similarly, every big business and corporation wants cheap labour, preferably labour that will tak…

Bang on a bakery does not require skilled workers they might have a few mechanics to service the line and a couple of technicians to do H&S related tests the rest will be unskilled.

though actually probably not the best analogy Ferrari do limit the number of cars they make and to buy one of the new hot ones you often have to be an existing customer.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#102

Post by gambiting »

As a Pole, I find it unbelivable. The system is incredibly strict, there is absolutely no place for free-thinking, I have never seen their archaic methods applied to real-world usage in a classroom, and all universities have very low funding,which means that most experiments are ran on ancient machines. There is no budget for buying tools or documentation. My girlfriend was told in front of the class by the professor that she should not be studying engineering because it's not an industry for women. It would be completely unacceptable at a university in the UK or in the States. In Poland she went to see the head of the university and was told that "she probably misunderstood what the professor meant". Obviously every one knows that that these two people are good friends so it's impossible to do anything about the situation.

If the Polish education system taught me anything, it is that free thinking is a bad thing,and you are punished for it on every step of your education.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#103

Post by simonh »

hanula wrote: post #67
jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement. On the other side I value my education I had in Poland only because it was hard sometimes and I was looking into how to hack the system and outsmart teachers' questions/assignments (math especially). Education system I had ten years ago was focused on memorization, "soft" subjects and skills (languages, first language) while math and physics weren't valu…

>I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement.

You might find it interesting to read and comment on the actual article then. It dates the beginning of the recent reform of Poland's education system to 1997, just one year before you graduated, so it may be that a lot has changed since your time.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#104

Post by ericd »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #93
ericd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't realize how lucky I was to attend the public school I did. I need to write my diff eq teacher a thank you card for deciding to teach high school instead of doing engineering work for much better pay. Maybe someday I'll do the same for my kids' school, when I have kids.

Please do so. You may just make his/her day much, much better.

I tracked down his email address and shot him off a long email. Hopefully he still remembers who I am :-)

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#105

Post by ddd1600 »

hanula wrote: post #67
jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement. On the other side I value my education I had in Poland only because it was hard sometimes and I was looking into how to hack the system and outsmart teachers' questions/assignments (math especially). Education system I had ten years ago was focused on memorization, "soft" subjects and skills (languages, first language) while math and physics weren't valu…

Wow this sounds like my college experience. A in ochem, F in HR

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#106

Post by tokenadult »

The review of Amanda Ripley's new book Smartest Kids in the World by Annie Murphy Paul in the New York Times[1] is a good reality check on the review from The Economist kindly posted here. The book is in hot demand in my county library system, so my request for the book hasn't been filled yet. The other excerpts from the book I have seen online have been very good.

I have lived overseas and observed the effect of another school system, and indeed education reform is the issue that drew me to participate here on Hacker News,[2] so I am always interested in discussing education policy here. Based on the different country I have observed, I think the book's account is largely correct. Americans underestimate how much young people can learn. School programs in the United States, according to federal sample surveys, are so underchallenging that many school pupils, not just the "gifted" pupils, find school too easy and boring.[3] Mathematics lessons in the United States are especially notorious for emphasizing the mechanical aspects of calculation--thus expecting students to bring electronic calculators to class--and underemphasizing the thinking involved in mathematical problem-solving.[4]

Let's discuss what makes sense in education policy on the basis of facts from more than one place. It's significant that we are discussing education policy around the world here in English, as very few Americans could discuss education policy in Korean, Polish, or Finnish, the languages of the countries profiled in the new book. (I could discuss education policy in Chinese, the language I learned as a second language, but that is not the usual experience of Americans.) The new book's encouragement to do that is a good contribution to better education policy.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/25/books/review/amanda-ripley...

[2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4728123

[3] http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2012-07-...

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/z_Personal/G...

[4] http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Resources/articles.php?pa...

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#107

Post by hanula »

simonh wrote: post #103
hanula wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement. On the other side I value my education I had in Poland only because it was hard sometimes and I was looking into how to hack the system and outsmart teachers' questions/assignments (math especially). Education system I had ten years ago was focused on memorization, "soft" subjects and skills (languages, first language) while math and physics weren't valu…

>I would say the same, it's quite a shock read such a statement. You might find it interesting to read and comment on the actual article then. It dates the beginning of the recent reform of Poland's education system to 1997, just one year before you graduated, so it may be that a lot has changed since your time.

Thanks for pointing that out, so I can specify more on the topic. It's exactly why I'm astounded as everything back in 1998 looked like going into worse and ever since, I only hear how the level of education goes lower and lower (exact science especially; math and physics). I cannot give you specific sources as I find it from time to time while listening to podcasts about popular-science and technology where highly skilled and respected professors complain sometimes about current education level and the lack of plan for the future.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#108

Post by speeder »

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I also think the article to be terrible.

The article believes making more children have more shit on their head is the way to go...

No, seriously, that is not "learning to think" that is learning formulas and other random shit that you will never use on your life with few exceptions.

Learning to think is when you allow kids to learn on their own, what they are curious about, when curiosity drives learning, THEN people learn to think, because they have to.

When you just hammer random facts on someone head, you just fill that someone head with random facts... And the only need for that, is to hammer those random facts on someone else head.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#109

Post by zanny »

speeder wrote: post #108
jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I also think the article to be terrible. The article believes making more children have more shit on their head is the way to go... No, seriously, that is not "learning to think" that is learning formulas and other random shit that you will never use on your life with few exceptions. Learning to think is when you allow kids to learn on their own, what they are curious about, when curiosity drives learning, THEN peopl…

This. I don't think a single education system in the world gets this right, because it is so diametrically opposed to being able to gauge performance or have metrics to evaluate aptitude. You basically have to sit down and have a conversation with the person whenever you want to profile their progress, but nobody wants to put that time in with children, and it isn't something you could rate on a scale or regurgitate into teachers brains on how to perform. It requires critical thinking to see critical thinking.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#110

Post by Jd »

tokenadult wrote: post #106

The review of Amanda Ripley's new book Smartest Kids in the World by Annie Murphy Paul in the New York Times [1] is a good reality check on the review from The Economist kindly posted here. The book is in hot demand in my county library system, so my request for the book hasn't been filled yet. The other excerpts from the book I have seen online have been very good. I have lived overseas and observed the effect of an…

I don't see why Americans should be able to discuss education policy in Polish. Seems a non sequitur. I don't think the author of the book claimed to be able to do such anyways.

As for technological over-reliance, I take that as given.

I'm surprised that you agree w/ the conclusion of the review that segregating talent into higher and lower achieving groups is bad. To me this is one of the strengths of the US system. Even if the high achieving groups are not stimulating enough for high achievers, it seems to provide some sort of positive stimulus that otherwise would be lacking in the system.

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