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Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

economist.com

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Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#71

Post by V-2 »

flexie wrote: post #54
kubov wrote: post #13

Well, reading that as a 22 years old Polish male gives me mixed feelings. I was living in Poland and studying there for my whole life and basically I have experience basically in whole educational process here (preschool, elementary, gymnasium, high school and now pursuing BS degree at polytechnic) I can definitely say that polish educational system is not that great. Of course we have a lot of people contesting in c…

Yet, here you are; following a website with a decent intellectual level and without much effort you are participating in discussions in a language that is foreign to you :-) I have a feeling that although you most likely didn't go to an elite ground school or an elite high school you probably know a second and maybe a third foreign language as well, in high school you could do what Americans would call college level…

"How many Americans know the largest city in Poland?" - how many Europeans know on what continent is Mexico located? Or Kazakhstan (one of the 10 largest countries in the world, for that matter)? Or which Korea is which? Or who was who in the Balkan conflict - that's a bloody and recent war right in Europe.

Or does anyone remember that fellow? :) http://youtu.be/SmLwnSXNpFU

Sure that's just a random bloke (what about the public though? What are the odds?), but one could expect members of the parliament to be fairly knowledgeable, at least in the field of politics and current events. Italy: http://www.video.mediaset.it/video/iene/puntata/3673/i-parla... - the journalist asked them some not that tricky questions out of the blue.

They didn't know who Mandela was (or thought he was a president of Brazil), they didn't know what Guantanamo was (and ultimately made a guess it was located in Afganistan). Greenhouse effect? No clue. Darfur? (War in Darfur was the headlines back then). They're stumped. People who do politics for living.

Americans at least seem fond of accusing themselves of ignorance and are quick to acknowledge it, while Europeans, well, kind of do the same thing - in the sense that they eagerly stereotypize Americans as the ignorant ones :)

I'm not American (I'm Polish), but I'm tired of this cliche - whenever I hear someone babbling on about these ignorant Americans, it grinds my gears, not out of love for Americans in particular, just in the same way as all myths, urban legends etc. passed on as facts.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#72

Post by mdda »

anonemouscoward wrote: post #59
jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

Everything the Economist publishes is motivated purely by politics. Poland is the number one USA ally, offset against the EU, and, especially, Russia, the evil bad guy in this current cold war.

Perhaps you should read a bit more of what The Economist actually writes before making such a claim. They do indeed have a (stated) political viewpoint : The are a Liberal paper (in its original English sense, not in the sense that the word is used in US politics) [0].

[0] http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/09/ec...

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#73

Post by polymatter »

usernew1817 wrote: post #20
xux wrote: post #15

Most people don't need to think. Thinking isn't necessary to live in today's world.

right, that makes sense....

well, you don't need any creative thinking. you can easily scrape by life doing what you see other people doing without questioning it.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#75

Post by polskibus »

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

On one hand I'd agree with you, on the other Poles whine a lot and need a lot of appreciation from others to believe in themselves. I have worked with many people educated in other countries in similar age as mine. We compared our educational experience - many admitted that in terms of scope, PL education seemed much better - more in-depth courses, more interesting problems solved during studies, etc.

I'd say that you have to look at particular education levels and types of studies to get a good understanding on what's good and bad in PL education system.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#76

Post by collyw »

jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

I have a number of good friends who are teachers, including maths, and they talk about it a lot. While you may not think your system is good, it sounds like the UK system is encouraging mediocrity.

For example, when I was at school 20 years ago, we had to memorise formulas for common thing ( speed = distance over time, and similar). Apparently the kids are given the formulas in exams now. There doesn't appear to be such a thing as a "fail" these days, just a "foundation level pass".

As such, I can see where the UK is failing, and see positive things mentioned about Poland in the article.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#77

Post by Semaphor »

2 anecdotes:

We had a guy from Poland living with us in Germany for 6 months. I think it was around 2003/2004 when I was still in school. His math skills were absolutely impressive but he still had to study a lot to keep up (he was living in Germany due to some excellency initiative, so this is a slightly skewed sample). When he showed me some of their lessons it was way beyond what we had to do in school.

In 9th grade I took part in an exchange program with the UK. As they lacked exchange partners , I got matched up with a guy from 10th or 11th grade (can't remember). The school was supposedly one of the better ones. I wasn't very good in math (usually hovered around grade 3 [1 - 6 with 1 being the best grade and 4.0 the worst passing grade]) but I was pretty much the best in their class. Wasn't very impressed by them.

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#78

Post by jwr »

polskibus wrote: post #75
jwr wrote: post #49

I am Polish, I live in Poland, and I found the article's praise for our education system strange. My opinion of it is much lower. I regularly worry about teaching my children to think for themselves — because I believe this is something the schooling system actively discourages. I also don't think that recent reforms did much to improve education, and I don't see why anyone could think they did. I would approach this…

On one hand I'd agree with you, on the other Poles whine a lot and need a lot of appreciation from others to believe in themselves. I have worked with many people educated in other countries in similar age as mine. We compared our educational experience - many admitted that in terms of scope, PL education seemed much better - more in-depth courses, more interesting problems solved during studies, etc. I'd say that yo…

I can't compare recent advances in educational systems, but I do have pretty good knowledge of at least what used to happen in high schools in the US and of schools and a technical university in France.

The conclusions I'd draw (and mind you, this is knowledge from ~15-20 years ago, and it is my knowledge and my opinions):

* Polish high school students indeed know more and are better at problem solving than most US high school students, * that said, there are high schools (public!) in the US that offer university-level courses and are excellent, * and university-level education seems to be much better in the US, * the US approach of "if the answer has one too many significant digit, it is wrong and you get zero points" is virtually unknown in Poland and comes as a shock to Polish students, who are often taught that "it is the approach that counts". I find the US approach much more realistic: it doesn't matter how you "approached" the design of a bridge, if the bridge collapsed. * French schools are quite similar to Polish ones, but: * mathematics taught at French technical universities (the best ones) is WAY WAY WAY above what a Polish high-school graduate would expect,

My main point is that it is very difficult to compare educational systems and draw meaningful conclusions. Dealing with society-wide aggregates doesn't tell you much about the outliers: best schools, best students, specific curriculums, or specific sciences.

My secondary point is that based on my experience I wouldn't say the Polish system is better than any other. And I don't see any sweeping changes that would improve the situation in recent years (the reshuffling of schools and age groups doesn't do much in my opinion).

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#79

Post by rustynails77 »

This year, I've engaged schools at length to discuss computer based systems. There are a few recurring threads that I have seen that would support this article.

* Real-world examples are not favoured. I'd go as far to say they are unpopular. There is an over emphasis on theory and rote learning, without providing context. This may be a result of "stove piping" mathematics to be "pure math only", rather than having "real-world applications".

* Children are shoe-horned and given little opportunity to pace themselves and their learning. The theory may be that kids that progress quickly may become bored.

* Technology is praised/shunned in the wrong ways. Tablets are generally praised, and in my view, offer limited opportunity and creativity. PCs are shunned, or treated as "toys".

* Over emphasis on rewards. There seems to be a common thread that kids continually need to be bribed. Avatars/humourous or cute animations/etc. There may be a good reason for this, but I find that it actually distracts students rather than helps.

I could list other things that have concerned me, but these are the first ones that come to mind.

Edited to add comments about "rewards".

Re: Only a few countries are teaching children how to think

#80

Post by sloth0000 »

I was born in Poland and lived there until I turned 24 (I am 35 now). Now living in Australia and having previously lived in other countries, mainly US , contrary to others who comment on the quality of Polish education, I can confirm that thanks to the fact I received it in Poland I am much better off compared to my peers in AU or US. I work in IT now but previously got a teaching degree here in AU and worked in education (high schools) for 3 years. To put it in a nutshell, AU education (probably along with other westernized countries) is an utter joke compared to Polish. What AU kids do at school, irrespective of the level they are in is 3-4 years behind Europe. AU is going strong thanks to its migrants coming mainly from Asia who are slowly replacing typical Australians in high paying white collar jobs. Any kid educated in Asia can run circles around top students here and that is particularly evident during students exchange programs where newcomers cannot believe that learning about fractions and watching cartoons to write compositions or essays is a standard curricular approach. The reason I do not work in education anymore is precisely because I could not stand myself to watch how AU curriculum with a plethora of mickey mouse subjects is dumbbing this generations down (and probably others before it). I am not saying that Polish education was the highlight of my youth and that as a student I didn't hate every day of my life while at school, spent cramming Math and English and many other, seemingly useless subjects. However, seeing what I see now, in hindsight I am so grateful for the fact that it was so bloody hard to be even average student at my school and now that I have 2 kids on my own I feel sorry for the fact that unless I pay premium from the start for a private school, they will never have the same opportunity as I did.
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