Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#411

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 1:57 PM UTC

adamnemecek wrote: post #325

chris_wot wrote: post #170

I have a few things to say. This is, frankly, appalling! Justice should never have been asked to do "body shots", and her boss should have been charged with a criminal offense. The second thing I'd like to say is an anecdote from some time ago when I went to VMWare's vSohere conference in Sydney. I drink alcohol, but only ever in moderation ad I never get drunk. The reason for this is that in my teenage years I got d…

> VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor. You are right. Employers should babysit their employees at all times. /s

I wasn't their employee. Under Responsible Serving legislation in NSW, the conference venue must not allow patrons to get intoxicated [1] in licensed premises. [2]

It must have been clear that I was intoxicated, but the staff kept topping up my glass. I realise now what happened, and if I hadn't been distracted with all my interactions with those around me I would have refused the topups. But the law in NSW, Australia is very clear - this is strictly not allowed.

Before you go down some odd Libertarian path to say that we have a nanny state (or some such bullshit), the Australian Government realised some time ago that Australians drink far too heavily. We are world champions in abusive drinking. It it said that the Australian contingent of Oktoberfest is specifically kept away from all the other countries festivities because we are far too wild, and we get abusive and spoil everyone else's fun. Sad, but unfortunately true.

The Australian Medical Association agrees. In a 2009 information paper, they state that,

Many Australians drink alcohol at harmful levels. There are short-term risks of harm (associated with high levels of drinking on a single occasion) and long-term risks (associated with consistent high level consumption over a lengthy period of time.) In 2007, the majority of Australians (60.8%) over 14 years of age drank alcohol at levels that involved a low risk of harm. However, almost one in ten Australians over 14 years of age in 2007 drank at levels considered risky or high risk to health (ie, 7 or more standard drinks on any one day for males and 5 or more standard drinks on any one day for females). [3]

It's a serious issue in Australia, and the amount of societal harm alcohol causes us far outweighs just about every other social issue in the country. Hence the laws about responsible service of alcohol.

1. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/la2007107/...

2. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/la2007107/...

3. https://ama.com.au/alcohol-use-and-harms-australia-2009-info...

Re: Because it needs to be said

#412

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

tommorris wrote: post #355

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes. As nice as that sounds, there isn't a shred of truth to it in the real world. Pre-emptively asking a female before making a move will get you shut down every time. You're supposed to read the situation, pick up on signals, and often be a little bit psychic. Show me a female who wants you to explicitly ask permission before every action and I'll…

Pre-emptively asking someone before borrowing their car gets you shut down every time. That's not a reason to not do do so.

I'm not arguing for or against anything in particular, I'm just saying how humans mate away from their keyboards.

A process which has no relation whatsoever to that of borrowing a vehicle, I might add.

If you want to go reductio ad absurdum on me, you can twist what I said to imply that I'm suggesting it's fine to go around raping people first and asking questions later, but I trust that a rational reader won't have issues understanding what my actual message was (even if they disagree with it (wrongly)).

Re: Because it needs to be said

#413

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 1:58 PM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #391

gregd wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll oblige you with a response. This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

Seeing as you are an expert on the matter: whenever I am presented in such a situation; at which point do I ask the woman for consent? Is it when she jumps on the bar and lifts her shirt or when I lick her belly button (which was why she jumped on the bar)? Before I wrap my hands around her of after I kiss her forehead?

If you are her boss, you don't do those things at all.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#414

Post by kristofferR » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:01 PM UTC

ryanbrunner wrote: post #401

kristofferR wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent is almost always just implied, not explicit. I'm in no way defending him or his actions, but it's understandable how an intoxicated guy (therefore less able to read subtle body language signals) could think an act of foreplay like licking alcohol from her body was a way of consenting to further sexual advances.

I could maybe accept this argument if he tried to advance things, and stopped when it was clear she wasn't reciprocating. There's a sexual element to a body shot, and there's really no use denying that fact. But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate, and certainly when someone tells you to stop, you've clearly crossed a line. In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point sh…

Her post is light on details, so it's hard to decipher how Joe perceived the situation.

> But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate...

It's likely that he didn't notice her not reciprocating the kiss. He might also have though she was just a bit shy or simply a bad kisser.

> In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop".

Agreed, no doubt about it. However, this is what she wrote:

"I told Joe to stop and reminded him he had a wife and children. He said, “Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”"

There's a massive difference between "Stop, I don't want this" and "Stop, we shouldn't do this because you have a wife and kids". It seems to me like Joe though she meant it the second way.

This whole story seems like a tragic case of serious miscommunication between two intoxicated people, not a vile act of evil.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#415

Post by chris_wot » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:01 PM UTC

makomk wrote: post #352

pearjuice wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't there and can't speak of how Justine was lying on the bar (whether she was enjoying that moment) but I can read: >Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers) So this is not uncommon. She was OK at this point. She occasionally let men kis…

The parts you missed? Hmmm, how about the part where it would have been rather obvious to him that his advances were unwanted right around the part he tried to kiss her with tongue if not earlier. What about the part where it's rather difficult to get off a bar when you're drunk and there's a guy leaning over you. Then there's the part where women are under social pressure not to kick up a big fuss about this kind of…

Let's also not forget about abuse of power. That was her boss, two levels up in the hierarchy of the company. She was shocked, and I'm sure most people can understand how awkward it is for her to have had to demand her boss stop groping her.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#416

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

gregd wrote: post #383

pearjuice wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right? At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately.…

pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?

[deleted]

Re: Because it needs to be said

#417

Post by gregd » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:12 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #408

gregd wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?

[deleted]

I'm not missing the point of pearjuice' argument. In each of his/her posts, he shifts the blame from the perpetrator (Joe) to the victim (Justine) and follows up by taking it to some weird extremes "So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right?" and using Wikipedia to define body shots and erogenous zones.

You do it in your post with, "why didn't she remove herself from the situation". Neither one of you question Joe's behavior...just Justine's. If you can't see that as victim blaming, then I'm not sure what else to say.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#418

Post by DanBC » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:14 PM UTC

gregd wrote: post #417

[deleted] wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I'm not missing the point of pearjuice' argument. In each of his/her posts, he shifts the blame from the perpetrator (Joe) to the victim (Justine) and follows up by taking it to some weird extremes "So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right?" and using Wikipedia to define body shots and erogenous zones. You do it in your post wi…

> Apparently I've reached the maximum thread depth and don't have a "reply" option to your post.

There is a built-in time limit to prevent rapid replies when threads get deep.

You can either wait a few minutes, or work out how to get the reply box.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#419

Post by fingerfood » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

gregd wrote: post #382

pearjuice wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So any contact by a man on woman which has not explicitly said "Yes, I am okay with this" is sexual assault? Rape? Shouldn't the victim have responsibilities? Know what is at stake?

I'll oblige you with a response. This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger? Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

> Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat?

No.

> Did you read where he groped her ass?

Yes.

> Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger?

No.

Quit trying to sensationalize the story.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#420

Post by theorique » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 2:18 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #372

I feel bad for Joe. What he did was not malicious. He is not an abuser or predator. He did a dumb thing. This story isn't about a rapist or someone who preys on women. It's about a drunk man who thought he was going to score. A man who was becoming increasingly physical with a woman who he was attracted to, and who invited him to do a body shot after he had grabbed her ass. For those who don't know what body shots ar…

No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt."

While I agree with you that this is less common than communicating through body language, it sounds like a great exaggeration to say "No man" or "No woman".