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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#381

Post by tommorris »

kalleth wrote: post #254
icecreampain wrote: post #169

This article confuses me. 1. Why do work collegues party with each other? Isn't work for work and non-work for non-work? Why mix the two? That's asking for shit, throwing professionality out the window. At my recent places of employ I have religously avoided any private contact with my collegues. This gives me an air of professionality and a sense of trust = "Icecreampain will treat me fairly because he is not best f…

I'm not going to speak to your other points, but I agree with your final point. We have a rule of law in our country (the UK), the same as you do in yours. This smells like a lynching. I think generally it's important to believe the victim, but also believe that the accused is innocent until proven otherwise, in a court of law, by a jury of their peers. Our criminal justice systems cannot work unless this is true. Ev…

Innocent until proven guilty means the law needs to presume that you are innocent until a court proves you guilty.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard not a requirement that everybody in society adheres to in their own personal judgement.

If the courts think you are guilty of a crime, they can send you to jail. If I think you are guilty of a crime, I can't send you to jail. The difference in practical results is why there's a difference in the evidential standards used.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#382

Post by gregd »

pearjuice wrote: post #375
gregd wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pearjuice, after reading your other comments in this thread and the justifications you're using for the sexual assault that occurred, I would be seriously concerned with those around you, should you ever partake in drinking with them. You mention "why" a lot in some of your posts. "Why did she not get off that bar?", "Why did she even get on that bar?". Let us be clear about one thing. Justine suffered a sexual assau…

So any contact by a man on woman which has not explicitly said "Yes, I am okay with this" is sexual assault? Rape? Shouldn't the victim have responsibilities? Know what is at stake?

I'll oblige you with a response.

This wasn't just "any contact". Did you read where he jammed his tongue down her throat? Did you read where he groped her ass? Did you read the part about penetrating her with his finger?

Quit trying to frame this as just "any contact" because it wasn't.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#383

Post by gregd »

pearjuice wrote: post #371
thomasmeeks wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your definitions are tangential to the argument. A body shot is risque, but they are not an open invitation to groping and fingering. Your point amounts to "her skirt was too short." Before you cry out straw-man, don't. Nowhere on wikipedia does it say body shots guarantee consent to groping and fingering. The fact it occurred on her navel doesn't mean 'yes'. By all accounts she was at least tipsy, if not outright dr…

So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right? At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately.…

pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop.

We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#384

Post by britta »

bobsy wrote: post #286

Joe's behaviour is completely unacceptable. Her treatment at work like some leper again is unacceptable though some this could be attributed to awkwardness on how to broach the subject or if it should be talked about at all. Two things strike me though: Shots off of Justine's stomach. The best response I have heard from a girl in a mixed group when asked to do it was "I will do it if you do it first." It turns it fro…

It can be really hard, almost impossibly hard, to make decisions when you're suddenly confronted with a situation that breaks your understanding of a person you trust (especially a person who has power over you, and especially a situation that seriously violates social norms) - at that moment, you're intensely confused, with a big "WTF" blaring in your head, your brain is flooding with panic and adrenaline...it's not hard to understand freezing up and just making the small efforts that are all you can manage, while hoping that it won't escalate (even while it keeps escalating).

It would be great for everyone to be able to bypass that shocked paralysis and immediately push away their attackers, but it's not realistic.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#385

Post by lawnchair_larry »

wilkie wrote: post #370
mattsfrey wrote: post #366

Saw this comment on her blog, pretty much sums up my sentiments exactly: twisted says: Since this entered public debate i feel the need to leave my own remarks. - Unfortunately, since we are fallable human beings, awkward situations will always happen. It’s mostly about how we behave during these and how we confront these afterwards that makes the ‘story’. - The chance for such awkward situations rises even more so w…

Now this is some first-class victim blaming. :(

That is extremely level headed and on point. It's not victim blaming in the least.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#386

Post by swombat »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #298
Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

Although I respect the point you're trying to make, it's only a part of the problem, by far not the entire problem. And what I find borderline offensive is that you completely ignore the fact that the company pretty much swept the whole incident under the rug. This in my opinion has had a much more immediate effect on the victim's sense of self worth than any deeper cultural issue. Basically she was given to believe…

You can't address every possible point from every possible opinion in every post.

I find it borderline offensive that you find it borderline offensive that the GP missed out on the point you wanted to make while making other valid points. Respectfully, of course.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#388

Post by dodyg »

kristofferR wrote: post #378
dodyg wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She agreed to the body shot and nothing else. There's no consent for other things. Body shot is not a 'gateway drug' to sexual assaults.

Consent is almost always just implied, not explicit. I'm in no way defending him or his actions, but it's understandable how an intoxicated guy (therefore less able to read subtle body language signals) could think an act of foreplay like licking alcohol from her body was a way of consenting to further sexual advances.

A body shot is not a foreplay to anything. If you need reference, go ask any university party goers.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#389

Post by Blahah »

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #280
chroma wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a difficult point to make. I'm surprised you didn't use a throwaway account. I've been assaulted by peers. I've had drugs slipped into my drink. One time, someone put a gun to my head and robbed me. After these experiences, I had nightmares, phobias, and insecurities. But surprisingly quickly, I recovered. Without social expectations of permanent trauma, the mind seems to be quite resilient. Thank you for mak…

I'm glad that you've suffered no lasting harm, but please do not overgeneralize to a claim as strong as saying that without social expectations others would respond similarly, because this can lead to people thinking that those with persistent problems after an isolated trauma are how somehow perpetuating their own problems through their attitudes. This is contrary to everything we understand about how humans respond…

Sounds like you might know the literature - can you link to some good jumping-in points?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#390

Post by lawnchair_larry »

ddagradi wrote: post #86
konstruktor wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "ask first" is that it is a self-defeating behaviour in current culture: Touching is an integral part of flirting and also common in interactions that don't involve sexual or romantic interest. And the current social norm is to start with light touching at a non-intimate place, and see if the other person reciprocates. Doing so is associated with confidence. "Can I touch the outside of your arm?" wou…

"Ask first" works just fine when the question is "can I stick my hand down your pants?". It really isn't the social norm to do that without asking.

What are you talking about? Among the subset of the population who participates in hands-down-pants, roughly zero percent of these interactions begin with one of them asking for permission first. It simply doesn't happen.
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