Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#301

Post by wilkie » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:09 AM UTC

itchitawa wrote: post #297

abrimo wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to blame the victim, which is troublingly common when someone has been raped or sexually harassed but it is never the right response. It is traumatising when these things happen, it is personally demeaning and it is never acceptable. Justine is brave for coming forward and we should encourage everyone in a similar situation to do the same and support them when they do. The deeper cultural problem here i…

We blame the victim all the time. Many alcoholic, drunk driver, bad-at-their-job people would rather not be like that but they're suffering some kind of severe emotional trouble and don't have the willpower to overcome it, much like this girl. They still get fired and charged with DUI regardless.

"Blaming the victim" means suggesting that the victim of a crime perpetrated by another was not the fault of the person who committed the crime, but rather their fault is somehow absolved by the actions of the victim. This is considered a terrible thing to do because it completely removes the victim's right to NOT be a victim.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#302

Post by malandrew » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:10 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #129

throwaway86 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet frighteningly effective; here's an anecdote that includes a thought exercise to consider, and let me preface the thought exercise by making clear that I am not accusing anyone of lying in the situation linked here and intentionally have no opinion on it, for reasons that shall become clear. (In fact, I wish I hadn't read it.) Let's introduce Bob (not his real name). Bob is a mid-level engineering manager. Sin…

The fact that there are bad actors that game the system does not mean we should not publicize reports of bad behavior. Rape is, at present, more of a problem to our society than false rape accusations. Perhaps that will change in the future. I hope it does.

    Rape is, at present, more of a problem to our society than 
    false rape accusations.

Citation needed. Do the statistics this statement is based on also include prison rape numbers?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#303

Post by kallekalle » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:11 AM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #267

mst wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else. Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name. Fuck you.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

Let's set aside the fact that you've just decided to do a body shot off a colleague.

> I cannot explain to men how hard it is being a woman trying to play it cool in an industry of men. I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. Regardless I got on the bar and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable.

You cite Wikipedia like it was a boolean logic kind of situation where just taking part means an invitation to anything a drunk brain can come up with.

Being drunk is not an excuse.

Sincerely, a dude who likes women

Re: Because it needs to be said

#304

Post by wilkie » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:12 AM UTC

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #298

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

Although I respect the point you're trying to make, it's only a part of the problem, by far not the entire problem. And what I find borderline offensive is that you completely ignore the fact that the company pretty much swept the whole incident under the rug. This in my opinion has had a much more immediate effect on the victim's sense of self worth than any deeper cultural issue. Basically she was given to believe…

And she had to return to that job without any reason to believe that they would offer any support.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#305

Post by frankzinger » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:12 AM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #257

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

"She was not raped or "sexually assaulted"..."

Did you miss the part where he penetrated her with his finger in front of everybody?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#306

Post by makomk » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:13 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #122

steveklabnik wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The relevant concept, as much as I _hate_ to link to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma As well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome

To be clear, I understand & am familiar with those concepts. I'm just... I don't want to put it in terms of comparison, but that's all I've got- shocked & confused that an event that I would expect to be less traumatic than rape, is seeming to impact the victim in ways much more dramatic than any recounting from a rape victim I can remember. Again, I hate to put it in terms of comparison. There's no competition here.…

Different people are affected differently. I don't think this just applies to rape and sexual assault; aren't there supposedly some soldiers who get PTSD despite remaining on a secure base for the length of their service, whilst others watch their colleagues get blown up and have relatively few long-term issues?

(Also, by some reasonable definitions this is rape; I think the laws in some juristictions may even see it that way.)

Re: Because it needs to be said

#307

Post by thomasmeeks » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:13 AM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #267

mst wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else. Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name. Fuck you.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

Your definitions are tangential to the argument. A body shot is risque, but they are not an open invitation to groping and fingering. Your point amounts to "her skirt was too short."

Before you cry out straw-man, don't. Nowhere on wikipedia does it say body shots guarantee consent to groping and fingering. The fact it occurred on her navel doesn't mean 'yes'.

By all accounts she was at least tipsy, if not outright drunk. Further, Joe was her boss at the time (i.e. position of authority). The responsibility was squarely on his shoulders to be 110% positive that his advances were welcomed. Whether he was unable to do that because he was too drunk, too excited, or didn't care does not matter. He failed in that responsibility and it is nobody's fault but his own.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#308

Post by klepra » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:14 AM UTC

mst wrote: post #261

pearjuice wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else. Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name. Fuck you.

this.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#309

Post by honzzz » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:15 AM UTC

wilkie wrote: post #296

honzzz wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apples and oranges. It's one thing to ask because you feel like it. It's another thing to have to ask because it's mandatory.

"because you feel like it" ... this is a terrible thing to conclude. Let's just all 'feel like' getting consent, alright?

"because you feel like it" ... this is a terrible thing to conclude. Let's just all 'feel like' getting consent, alright?

Please do not pretend that I am saying something terrible that I never said. It is obvious from what I said in this thread that I am all for 'getting consent' - I just do not think that problem of lack of respect for women can be solved by mandating verbal consent instead of non-verbal. I think your latest response is intellectually dishonest because it takes my "because you feel like it" quote out of context in such a way which implies that I would be OK with no consent at all... that is something I would never say.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#310

Post by epochwolf » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 11:16 AM UTC

seszett wrote: post #227

barrkel wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post accuses someone by name with some fairly emotive acts. Enough to have repurcussions on the other person's life. That seems like an attempt at amateur justice to me. In my country, the post would be grounds for libel if she can't prove it in court.

In mine, it would be grounds for libel most likely even if she can prove it in court, as far as I understand law. Or rather, the point is that she can't prove it fast enough for it not be libel (proof has to be produced within ten days, and in this case, proof would be a judgement against the guy). And I have to say that seems perfectly reasonable to me, as public accusations outside the justice system are something…

In the US if she's telling the truth, there is no case for libel.