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Because it needs to be said

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#351

Post by Sagat »

steveklabnik wrote: post #194
Sagat wrote: post #177

A tragic event but I really don't understand how making a public blog post is supposed to make anything better.

Please read the last paragraph. She didn't want to make this post, but an outcry for details from the community forced her hand.

I did, it's just that they didn't make it clear who the "community" was and how they had gotten wind of the problem, and what exactly they were demanding and how they were demanding it. In any case, I still think she should have gone through a different route. Why should masses of strangers dictate whether or not you have reveal personal information?

I really wish I could help this person (assuming the story is accurate, since some HN posters have pointed out that there are conflicting versions) but the only thing I can think of saying to her is to keep it within the circle of persons who are actually concerned by the whole incident, and seek reparations through legal channels. Nothing good comes out of involving a bunch of internet followers. I'd rather a formal investigation was made instead of witnessing a bunch of armchair detectives harass O'Brien without knowing all of the facts. One of my friends has had to deal with false accusations of a similar nature coming from his deranged ex, so I'd like to know beyond reasonable doubt what happened before thirsting for vengeance.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#352

Post by makomk »

pearjuice wrote: post #341
frankzinger wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"She was not raped or "sexually assaulted"..." Did you miss the part where he penetrated her with his finger in front of everybody?

I wasn't there and can't speak of how Justine was lying on the bar (whether she was enjoying that moment) but I can read: >Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers) So this is not uncommon. She was OK at this point. She occasionally let men kis…

The parts you missed? Hmmm, how about the part where it would have been rather obvious to him that his advances were unwanted right around the part he tried to kiss her with tongue if not earlier. What about the part where it's rather difficult to get off a bar when you're drunk and there's a guy leaning over you. Then there's the part where women are under social pressure not to kick up a big fuss about this kind of thing at the time because gee "it was only a bit of fun" and they're "overreacting".

If she had some pushed him away and got off the bar, I can pretty much guarantee you we'd be seeing comments just like yours about how she was freaking out over nothing.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#353

Post by pearjuice »

kallekalle wrote: post #303
pearjuice wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

Let's set aside the fact that you've just decided to do a body shot off a colleague. > I cannot explain to men how hard it is being a woman trying to play it cool in an industry of men. I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. Regardless I got on the bar and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable. You cite Wikipedia like it was a boolean logic kind of situation where j…

If being drunk is not an excuse why did she throw all of her responsibilities out of the window and decided to climb on that bar, lift her shirt in front of colleagues and other professionals in her field?

>I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules.

followed by "Regardless" says a lot about her sense of responsibility and ability to see what exactly she was doing, implying and portraying by lying down on that bar. Or was it the alcohol? Because certainly nobody lifted her on that bar, right? Nobody pushed her down when her boss groped her? Nobody held her mouth open when her boss sticked his tongue in? Nobody told her "your boss has all right to touch you, Justine. Stay flat, your boyfriend will never know"?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#354

Post by malandrew »

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #21

This is a body shot for those who don't know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBPT6AUnUnI | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKP99wrx6Sc | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBbz6hhoKbg Open-Minded Alternative-Understanding Scenario time: You're a male with your male gay friends at a gay bar. They're taller than you as they are gays of the muscle bear variety. You're the only one who's straight but you want to show them you…

I've been in a similar situation as you describe many times (20+ probably) when hanging out with my younger brother who is gay and his friends. Every time that I have been approached and groped sexually I have firmly, politely and unambiguously expressed my disinterest. I don't take it personally and neither do they. I also don't get bent out of shape over it. Advances like those I received are within the social norms that I expect when I am a guest in that subculture. I would be an asshole to vilify them for acting in a way that is generally acceptable in those environments and among that subculture.

Now that being said, a tech conference with your co-workers is different. That's a professional setting and sexual conduct between superiors and subordinates is unacceptable. However, it seems like there may have been prior signaling by the author that some touching was not only acceptable, but accepted[0], making it harder to place as harsh a judgement on what happened.

[0] began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers)

Re: Because it needs to be said

#355

Post by tommorris »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #332
steveklabnik wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes. The situation described falls within the definition of sexual assault in the United States, at least. I am not a lawyer. Decide for yourself: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.03

> Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes. As nice as that sounds, there isn't a shred of truth to it in the real world. Pre-emptively asking a female before making a move will get you shut down every time. You're supposed to read the situation, pick up on signals, and often be a little bit psychic. Show me a female who wants you to explicitly ask permission before every action and I'll…

Pre-emptively asking someone before borrowing their car gets you shut down every time.

That's not a reason to not do do so.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#356

Post by britta »

brazzy wrote: post #346
britta wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...yes, it is. Of course it's not as simple as saying "yes" or "no" in real life, but the point is that if a person is communicating something less than an obvious yes - for example, if a person is unusually quiet, has closed-off body language, isn't reciprocating, is hesitant, or seems uncomfortable - then the other person needs to stop and check in to find out what's going on. The uncomfortable person doesn't need…

That article makes some good points but ultimately describes a fantasy world (that I would like to live in!) in which women are not hesitant to unambiguously initiate romantic relationships and sex and then unilaterally places the burden on men to act as if that were the world we live in and risk being called rapists if they don't. It really a lot like victim blaming.

That article's explanation of consent easily supports a world where a lot of women hesitate to unambiguously initiate romantic relationships and sex. For example, the partner can listen to her hints, ask to confirm that his guess is correct, proceed when she gives him a reasonably clear confirmation, and keep his eyes open for signs that he made a mistake. It's about paying attention.

And the article explains that the burden isn't unilaterally on men - that men also benefit from partners who care about consent:

> Consent is not just about what you aren’t willing to do, it’s about being willing to talk, to communicate openly and without reservation with your partner about how they feel and how you feel. It can be intimidating, especially for guys, to take ownership of their feelings about sex, especially if they don’t want to have it. Many men feel that they have to have sex, even when they’re not comfortable with it, because they’re men and that’s what men do so they have to suck it up. There will be times that men will feel pressured, even coerced, just as women do.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#357

Post by klepra »

jlgreco wrote: post #343
klepra wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know his height/bodyfat.

While true, keep in mind that Hulk Hogan was billed at 302lbs. There are potentially healthy body configurations at that weight, but not many.

I tried to demonstrate ridiculousness of off-topic ad-hominem attack of posts author by providing more off-topic.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#358

Post by gregd »

pearjuice wrote: post #267
mst wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else. Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name. Fuck you.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

I'm sitting here, toiling away on HN, happy in the fact that I'd seen it all. Then I read your comment.

You couldn't possibly be using Wikipedia as a justification for sexual assault, could you?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#359

Post by makomk »

hrvbr wrote: post #218
Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

Yes, my first impression is that she's very fragile and passive. "Assault" is a too strong word if the guy let her go when she left for a smoke. And why didn't she punch the aggressor? Friends can be punched too. Saying "no" isn't enough to claim she resisted. If someone uses his physical force against us, we're not supposed to just say "please stop" as if the guy were respectful enough to obey. And she went back to…

If she'd punched her aggressor, people would instead be complaining about how she overreacted, and how their first impressions are that she's very hostile and aggressive, and she should just have said no again more firmly (I can remember this happening before). Female rape and sexual assault victims basically can't win no matter what they do.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#360

Post by dodyg »

pearjuice wrote: post #267
mst wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else. Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name. Fuck you.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy. >Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol ) Reading further: "An erogeno…

She agreed to the body shot and nothing else. There's no consent for other things. Body shot is not a 'gateway drug' to sexual assaults.
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