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Because it needs to be said

blogjustine.wordpress.com

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Re: Because it needs to be said

#401

Post by ryanbrunner »

kristofferR wrote: post #378
dodyg wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She agreed to the body shot and nothing else. There's no consent for other things. Body shot is not a 'gateway drug' to sexual assaults.

Consent is almost always just implied, not explicit. I'm in no way defending him or his actions, but it's understandable how an intoxicated guy (therefore less able to read subtle body language signals) could think an act of foreplay like licking alcohol from her body was a way of consenting to further sexual advances.

I could maybe accept this argument if he tried to advance things, and stopped when it was clear she wasn't reciprocating. There's a sexual element to a body shot, and there's really no use denying that fact.

But when you kiss someone, and they fail to reciprocate, and certainly when someone tells you to stop, you've clearly crossed a line. In my mind, there's absolutely no room for grey area in this from the point she said "stop".

Re: Because it needs to be said

#402

Post by chris_wot »

steveklabnik wrote: post #379
gbog wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But laws, while necessary, are very inefficient at avoiding bad behaviors. If I don't steal my neighbors or assault girls, it is not chiefly because it is forbidden by laws, it is because I would feel ashamed of myself. Edit: what I mean is that using the self esteem, sense of honor, education, all these old things might prove more efficient than laws, and maybe especially in problems related to disrespect of women.

Agreed, I only mean that 'yeah but how do you define sexual assault?' has a clear answer.

Not to mention, the offender lives in the same culture that defines what he did as sexual assault. The argument, to my mind is a little specious.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#403

Post by jvanenk »

Touche wrote: post #324

I'm sick of this bullshit convention culture that allows stuff like this to happen. The CodeMash sponsors should be fleeing from the event and be embarrassed. I'm a fucking professional, not a frat boy. I like to socially drink as much as the next person but a fucking professional convention is not the place for it. CodeMash is responsible for this incident; they created a situation where a woman, overwhelming minori…

Because of the timing, it's unlikely this was done in response to this incident, but CodeMash did update its code of conduct on September 26th.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/codemash/abX4UEL4vG4/e...

Re: Because it needs to be said

#404

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

Blahah wrote: post #389
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad that you've suffered no lasting harm, but please do not overgeneralize to a claim as strong as saying that without social expectations others would respond similarly, because this can lead to people thinking that those with persistent problems after an isolated trauma are how somehow perpetuating their own problems through their attitudes. This is contrary to everything we understand about how humans respond…

Sounds like you might know the literature - can you link to some good jumping-in points?

Unfortunately, my experience is more first hand (survived a nearly fatal accident as a toddler that has had lasting impact on my life). But I recall the CDC's page on the study having some good jumping off points, and I think I first ran into it via this series of articles: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-ellen-stevens/the-adverse...

Re: Because it needs to be said

#405

Post by ryanbrunner »

pearjuice wrote: post #353
kallekalle wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set aside the fact that you've just decided to do a body shot off a colleague. > I cannot explain to men how hard it is being a woman trying to play it cool in an industry of men. I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. Regardless I got on the bar and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable. You cite Wikipedia like it was a boolean logic kind of situation where j…

If being drunk is not an excuse why did she throw all of her responsibilities out of the window and decided to climb on that bar, lift her shirt in front of colleagues and other professionals in her field? >I want everyone to think I’m cool and relaxed so I try and just play by their rules. followed by "Regardless" says a lot about her sense of responsibility and ability to see what exactly she was doing, implying an…

If her complaint was that the bodyshot itself constituted sexual assault, sure. Otherwise your argument is literally no different than "she was wearing a short skirt and therefore deserved it."

Re: Because it needs to be said

#406

Post by chris_wot »

sneak wrote: post #197
throwaway9848 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling complete bullshit on you for "vast numbers of people who thing sexually assaulting people is okay". Either your definition of sexual assault is much different that standard usage, or you hang out with deplorable people. Edit: What did you hope to accomplish in your response? Edit 2: Also, perhaps instead you could educate us what it is we could learn by hanging out with smart people with PTSD. Since not all o…

http://bit.ly/1g8M3u1

A bit.ly link to a Let Me Google That For You for rape statistics in the U.S.? That's your contribution? Seriously?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#407

Post by wilkie »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #398
wilkie wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, lawnchair larry, I have asked, and have been asked, permission to do this very thing. It's really not that uncommon nor unwise to do so.

I assure you then, you're a rounding error. I'm surprised if you actually think most people do that.

I can assure you that my method means I do not rape people and your method means you might. And that's regardless of how many people employ my very reasonable and clear method of determining consent. Has the thought ever occurred to you that the fact that people believe ambiguous signals to be consent may actually CONTRIBUTE to the fact that 1 in 5 women experiences rape in their lifetime?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#408

Post by [deleted] »

gregd wrote: post #383
pearjuice wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what women need to start doing is carrying guns? If a man starts touching you without your consent you shoot them, simple, right? At any point she could have screamed, said "No" or simply stand up. Being tipsy doesn't paralyze your muscles. You can still speak and resist. If was she actively resisting anyone would have gotten between her and him much earlier and the police report would be in her favor immediately.…

pearjuice, you continue to take your arguments to ridiculous conclusions in order to justify what happened to Justine. Just fucking stop. We aren't talking about brushing up against someone at the bar. Her fucking boss took the body shot as an invitation to sexually assault her. What's so fucking difficult to understand about that?

[deleted]

Re: Because it needs to be said

#409

Post by theorique »

chroma wrote: post #166
Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

This is a difficult point to make. I'm surprised you didn't use a throwaway account. I've been assaulted by peers. I've had drugs slipped into my drink. One time, someone put a gun to my head and robbed me. After these experiences, I had nightmares, phobias, and insecurities. But surprisingly quickly, I recovered. Without social expectations of permanent trauma, the mind seems to be quite resilient. Thank you for mak…

Powerful stuff.

Being victimized by others is not a choice. Abiding in a victim identity is a choice.

That's why so many rape survivors choose that word - because it is more powerful than victim. Perhaps there are even more powerful names - thriver, for example.

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