Does his latest tweet has anything to do with this? If so it looks like he will post his version soon, for whatever it's worth.
> If so it looks like he will post his version soon Nope: > I will not be commenting more publicly. If you know me, I'm happy to talk in person. Thank you. https://twitter.com/objo/status/387615899470934016
Because it needs to be said
321–330 of 635 posts
Re: Because it needs to be said
#322As an aside, why is alcohol such a big part of things like tech meetups, etc? I've been to a few and there is always alcohol being served and people drinking it. As a Muslim, I've never touched alcohol and never will, and I don't understand the need to "alcoholize" everything. Why can't there be a culture of having just good clean fun, no alcohol, no drugs, no sexualizing? And what place does alcohol even have at tec…
As a counterpoint - there are plenty of Muslims who drink, so that has nothing to do with anything at all.
Islam forbids alcoholic drinks which is why most Muslims, including myself, do not consume them. I mentioned that I am Muslim by way of explanation as to why I don't drink, so it actually has everything to do with this.
Re: Because it needs to be said
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is it not rape if you don't resist? It's not rape if the other person has no way of telling that you want them to stop.
This would condone drugging your victim and is obviously and dangerously wrong.
Yes, obviously that is an important exception, which doesn't change the fact that the statement is generally correct.
Re: Because it needs to be said
#324I'm sick of this bullshit convention culture that allows stuff like this to happen. The CodeMash sponsors should be fleeing from the event and be embarrassed.
I'm a fucking professional, not a frat boy. I like to socially drink as much as the next person but a fucking professional convention is not the place for it. CodeMash is responsible for this incident; they created a situation where a woman, overwhelming minority in this type of place I'm sure, was compelled to engage in this person to the point where it escalated to this level. It's fucking sickening.
I for one vow not to attend another convention where drinking is part of the event. We are fucking professionals, people. Stop trying to prove how hip you are.
Re: Because it needs to be said
#325I have a few things to say. This is, frankly, appalling! Justice should never have been asked to do "body shots", and her boss should have been charged with a criminal offense. The second thing I'd like to say is an anecdote from some time ago when I went to VMWare's vSohere conference in Sydney. I drink alcohol, but only ever in moderation ad I never get drunk. The reason for this is that in my teenage years I got d…
> VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor.
You are right. Employers should babysit their employees at all times.
/s
Re: Because it needs to be said
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
This would condone drugging your victim and is obviously and dangerously wrong.
Yes, obviously that is an important exception, which doesn't change the fact that the statement is generally correct.
It highlights the fact that you are being far too general about when rape is allowed.
Re: Because it needs to be said
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is inaccurate. The individuals making comments were not ejected from the conference, they were informed that their words were having effects they might not be intending, they apologized, and returned to the conference. I can in no way speak for anyone's employer, but it's worth noting that only one of the individuals lost their job. I currently serve as the co-chair for the PyCon Program Committee, and as a dire…
I think I'd already noted part of this (that there were 2 job losses not 3), but Adria Richards' job certainly counts as part of the fallout from the whole thing as well. Thanks for what you do for Python.
Probably worth mentioning that Adria Richard's probably lost her job because she dragged(drug?) her employer into the fray on twitter.
Re: Because it needs to be said
#328One thing we can all do: Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of "ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if she's cool with it…
Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I think this is based on incorrect understanding of the real cause of the problem. The problem was not the lack of knowledge about the fact that she was not consenting - it was clearly apparent to everybody else, she did not need to verbalize it. The problem was that he was not able to perceive her obvious signals or did not care about them…
I wasn't there so I don't know, but were her signals only obvious at a distance of a few feet. From the description of the events they were physically close and from what I read she only implied only two non-verbal clues and one verbal clue:
(1) Expression on her face as she looked at two male bartenders waiting for them to help.
(2) Not reciprocating in the kiss
(3) Mentioning that Joe has a wife and children to which he replied “Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”.
The first one would have been completely missed by Joe because he was caressing her back and kissing her forehead. So that one doesn't count as obvious. The second is difficult to say whether it was obvious or not without being party to the kiss. Only Joe and Justine can fairly assess the obviousness of that non-verbal clue. Drunk people tend to kiss pretty poorly, even consenting adults, so I'd say that's a pretty shitty clue as well. Lastly, the third clue is ambiguous because it is not about what she wants or does not want but what he should or should not be doing. With that statement, she in a way put responsibility to continue or not in Joe's hands. If he does in fact have an open relationship with his wife where they can seek out other sexual partners, then to Joe its entirely possible that her sentence could have been misinterpreted as "I'd like to, but you have something good in your life and I don't want you to make a mistake". That sentence was not about her decision but about his.
That all being said, I was definitely inappropriate for Joe to do what he did because of their professional relationship, with him as her superior and her as his subordinate. For that reason, I definitely agree that its a firing-worthy HR violation. However, she is as responsible for unprofessional behavior. In what US country would the following ever be acceptable common workplace conduct:
began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let
me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I
consider close friends. I have a close relationship with a
lot of my former EdgeCase coworkers)
Re: Because it needs to be said
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
This comes dangerously close to victim-blaming. Let me tell you that what Justine is feeling is absolutely not some social construct built exclusively on archaic misogyny. I have known more than one gay man who was raped and felt exactly the same way. You might consider that at least some of the women who appear to deal better with being assaulted are actually just putting on a brave front to avoid being pitied and c…
I think it would be best to de-emphasize the question of blame altogether and have an unprejudiced discussion about how such incidents can be prevented in the future (and great kudos to Justine for trying just that). The terrifying thing about this is that in the area of sexuality the difference between an exciting, enjoyable experience and a terrifying, traumatizing one can be entirely in the mind of one party and n…
Especially if both are drunk.
I think a large part of the problem is the social acceptance of alcohol and being drunk. Objectively speaking, getting drunk is similar to getting wasted on other (illegal) drugs. Alcohol is a drug which due to an accident of history is legal. The negative consequences of alcohol consumption are ubiquitous. More people die from alcohol than from all illicit drugs combined. If it is wrong to take drugs, it is wrong to drink alcohol, especially to the point of debilitation.
Being drunk should not be an extenuating circumstance for bad behavior, it should be an aggravating circumstance. When people choose to drink something which makes them less able to behave in a socially acceptable way, they should be prepared to accept the consequences.
Re: Because it needs to be said
#330I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…
You're trying to blame the victim, which is troublingly common when someone has been raped or sexually harassed but it is never the right response. It is traumatising when these things happen, it is personally demeaning and it is never acceptable. Justine is brave for coming forward and we should encourage everyone in a similar situation to do the same and support them when they do. The deeper cultural problem here i…
If the victim actually, definitely and factually is partly to be blamed, why cannot the victim be blamed? Or do you disallow facts to be said? (This comment is general and doesn't make claims about this particular case).