Because it needs to be said • Hacker News Board

Re: Because it needs to be said

#261

Post by mst » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:37 AM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #257

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else.

Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name.

Fuck you.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#262

Post by honzzz » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:37 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #229

honzzz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I think this is based on incorrect understanding of the real cause of the problem. The problem was not the lack of knowledge about the fact that she was not consenting - it was clearly apparent to everybody else, she did not need to verbalize it. The problem was that he was not able to perceive her obvious signals or did not care about them…

I think think that's a great solution, but I think it will work best in conjunction with what I'm proposing. The trouble is that there will always be a wide range in people (it doesn't have to be men) in terms of empathy, respect, and self-control. Even if you succeed in totally changing the culture around empathy, there will still be individuals who are empathetically challenged, just based on physiology. What I'm s…

I hear what you are saying and it sound reasonable... but I just cannot imagine myself asking that question in that situation. Wine, candles, excitement of 'the first time with her' and tenderness... and suddenly I hear myself saying 'can I stick my hand into your panties?'

Talk about a mood-killer. Please try to imagine it. If your proposal gets traction I will probably never have sex again. It's a good thing I do not live in the US - I am afraid they will need signed contracts for that. I am sorry but I really think we are solving the wrong problem here - this is not going to save the victims but it might ruin something very precious. Am I being over-sensitive?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#263

Post by armandososa » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:37 AM UTC

I simply can't understand how smart people on their own will gather around with the only purpose of ingesting chemical compounds that are designed to make them stupid.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#264

Post by wilkie » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:38 AM UTC

zghst wrote: post #234

copx wrote: post #187

Reading the comments here makes me think I am in bizarro world. Is expecting women to say "No!" already too much personal responsibility for them these days? Calling this "sexual assault" is just crazy. There was no force, she never told him to stop. This would be thrown out in court without question in any half-way sane country.

She did tell him to stop, however she told him because "he had a wife and kids" and not because she was uncomfortable(?). I agree, this can hardly be marked as assault. From her account, she barely made an effort to let him know that his advances were unwelcome. If she doesn't have the ability to stop him and walk away from the situation, which she was perfectly capable of, then maybe she shouldn't be out in the adul…

His hand was down her pants in public... we are way passed the fuzzy moral lines. This is certainly sexual assault and I'm not sure how one can argue that she is responsible for making it clear by some unwritten protocol that all people understand rather than have it be understood that you have the burden and responsibility to not sexually harass people.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#265

Post by justin66 » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:38 AM UTC

dylangs1030 wrote: post #246

cynicalkane wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why many reasonable people simply do not like to talk about sexual assault, on here or in real life. It seems to cause people to default to a position where you must adopt one view (i.e. theirs) to the exclusion of all others. If you talk about the effects societal norms have on victims, or on strategies to navigate a misogynistic world, people will accuse you of "victim blaming". On the other hand there are…

The two of you are doing two things at the same time. First, you're having an intellectually legitimate debate that's probably revealing some good counter points and offering valid, alternative perspectives on the broader issue. Second, you're continuing a cold argument devoid of any (productive) empathy in lieu of passionate, scientific rigor. This is not what this post needs. Let it go, guys. Neither of you is goin…

My comment wasn't in the spirit of cold argument at all. I found Confusion's comment genuinely offensive. And yes, overly intellectualizing.

edit: I don't care about cynicalkane's comment enough to puzzle out what he means. No offense to cynicalkane intended. :)

Re: Because it needs to be said

#266

Post by sneak » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:39 AM UTC

beloch wrote: post #250

Somewhat tangential query for people who know something about psychiatry: My standard way of dealing with shit is to repress it. If I get angry, sad, etc. the first thing I do is squash the emotion (anger is generally the biggest problem but the easiest to squish). If circumstances may cause that negative emotion to reoccur, I take reasonable action to prevent it from doing so whenever possible (It's hard to bring yo…

It's different for different people. I know many people end up having to somehow internally confront and process things that happened to them that they had previously deferred.

I don't really think a queue is the right mental model. If you suffer trauma and choose not to feel, but indeed have memory, you must continue to be just as committed to choosing not to feel for as long as you remember. Failing that, you will eventually have emotions about the trauma at some point. I don't think people are very good at keeping those types of defenses in place for years upon years.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#267

Post by pearjuice » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:42 AM UTC

mst wrote: post #261

pearjuice wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else. Die in a fucking fire, you victim blaming moronic waste of fucking skin. Or at the very least get the fuck out of my fucking industry so you stop giving those of us with a penis and a clue a bad name. Fuck you.

That's a lot of ad hominem we got there. You may want to slow down a bit and take things easy.

>Just because she consented to the shot part does NOT mean she was offering anything else

"A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol)

Reading further:

"An erogenous zone (from Greek ἔρως eros "love" and English -genous "producing" from Greek -γενής -genes "born") is an area of the human body that has heightened sensitivity, the stimulation of which may result in the production of sexual fantasies, sexual arousal and orgasm." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erogenous_zone)

Please take note of the part involving "sexual fantasies, sexual arousal and orgasm". She peeled her shirt up in a submissive position on a bar with lots of alcohol involved. Which part are you missing?

Re: Because it needs to be said

#268

Post by mst » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:42 AM UTC

abrimo wrote: post #198

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

You're trying to blame the victim, which is troublingly common when someone has been raped or sexually harassed but it is never the right response. It is traumatising when these things happen, it is personally demeaning and it is never acceptable. Justine is brave for coming forward and we should encourage everyone in a similar situation to do the same and support them when they do. The deeper cultural problem here i…

I am unable to understand how a long post about how "societal expectations makes the suffering of the victims even worse than it might otherwise be" is anything except sympathetic towards the victim.

If you're seeing blaming in it, please do explain why since I'm as confused as the OP was.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#269

Post by brazzy » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:43 AM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #186

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

This comes dangerously close to victim-blaming. Let me tell you that what Justine is feeling is absolutely not some social construct built exclusively on archaic misogyny. I have known more than one gay man who was raped and felt exactly the same way. You might consider that at least some of the women who appear to deal better with being assaulted are actually just putting on a brave front to avoid being pitied and c…

I think it would be best to de-emphasize the question of blame altogether and have an unprejudiced discussion about how such incidents can be prevented in the future (and great kudos to Justine for trying just that).

The terrifying thing about this is that in the area of sexuality the difference between an exciting, enjoyable experience and a terrifying, traumatizing one can be entirely in the mind of one party and not necessarity noticeable to the other party while it's happening. Especially if both are drunk.

And most women fully expect men to be bold and take the initiative while they themselves give vague signals that are easy to misinterpret. And all of this is pretty much expected to happen while everyone involved is drunk because that removes inhibitions and that's what everyone wants.

A recipe for disasters like this, really.

Re: Because it needs to be said

#270

Post by wilkie » Sat, Oct 12, 2013, 10:44 AM UTC

pearjuice wrote: post #257

Confusion wrote: post #118

I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value.…

>walls of text everywhere trying to examine the situation and blame those involved You guys have to deal with it that she voluntarily lied down on a bar, induced by alcohol with other men around her and OFFERED her body to be licked. In which universe did she saw an expected outcome of not being approached with a sexual tone? They were drinking the entire night and all those geeky guys normally filled with anxiety co…

I think that a person who agrees to a body shot expects that somebody drink a shot from their body, and then they get up, and then nothing directly happens as a result and they get to choose what happens next. I reject the notion that consenting to a body shot is equivalent to foreplay.