Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#271

Post by crntaylor » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:13 PM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #141

konstruktor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfill…

Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…

That isn't experimental evidence to the contrary at all, because the unpleasant jobs are done by people who don't have access to the government-mandated minimum income!

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#272

Post by 6d0debc071 » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income.

If it's more expensive to hire people to do crappy work, then the relative utility of robots goes up. It doesn't strike me as a particularly complex problem to make robots to collect people's trash, or similar jobs. Most of the low-wage jobs are very mechanical and routine in nature.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#273

Post by llamataboot » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:17 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #262

alextingle wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish we could deport racists.

I wish we could deport people who throw around the "racist" label casually. There is nothing racist about believing that big, complex, interdependent societies function best when people share basic values, beliefs, and culture. It's the difference between multiculturalism as practiced in the U.S., where e.g. asian immigrants to the west coast have assimilated the basic values of american society while remaining disti…

You do realize that the "But they just can't be like us" argument has been used on nearly every minority ethnicity coming to the US - you can find similar diatribes against Italian and Irish migrants from the turn of the century before they became white.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#274

Post by mizchief » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:19 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Unless they put in price controls for basic goods, nothing will really change when it comes to jobs. When everyone has an extra $2,800 a month to spend across the board, what do you think will happen to prices? Why would I give you my time when I get the money for free? Business will have to pay more to encourage people to continue to work for them, and increase prices to make up the difference.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#275

Post by api » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:20 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

"One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income."

Computers and robots.

Not true quite yet, but will be in the next few decades.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#276

Post by eli » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:21 PM UTC

swissass wrote: post #230

jre wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

Live near the border with France. Buy everything there in EUR. Border is nonexistent for all practical purposes so this is very doable.

Don't you still have to go through customs and maybe pay duties since Switzerland is non-EU?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#277

Post by notahacker » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:24 PM UTC

comicjk wrote: post #74

Kiro wrote: post #47

Wouldn't basic income just lead to higher prices and inflation?

A redistribution of consumption does not increase prices overall, although in the short run you would expect apples to be more expensive and yachts to be cheaper. An overall increase in consumption, because poor people save a smaller fraction of their money, does lead to inflation, though also to economic growth.

It's redistributing from people that save most of their income (and often consume outside the Swiss economy) to people that consume most of their income (in Switzerland. The price of yachts on the world market won't move. The price of apples in Zurich will skyrocket, especially since the move simultaneously decreases the supply of low-end labour willing to work all month delivering or selling apples for 3200CHF per month. The combined effect of the two is likely to be massively inflationary.

I'd be a lot happier with the Basic Income if I owned-low end rental property in Zurich than if I had a job, unless BI is funded by a property tax...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#278

Post by powertower » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:28 PM UTC

pgeorgi wrote: post #220

gaius wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Cambodia is one, North Korea, China in the 50s, Zimbabwe... Millions dead.

Universal healthcare, social security and pensions in Germany (late 19th century): millions saved. And it's that big a political experiment that the most powerful country in the world still doesn't dare to replicate it in its entirety.

USSR. Millions lost.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#279

Post by garg » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:31 PM UTC

tpainton wrote: post #236

Atlas shrugged... and the leaches attacked. I find it hard to believe Swit doesn't already have some welfare system that provides for those who actually need it... but now, 30k a year just for breathing? Sounds like communism to me.... only you don't have to produce anything. Utopianism like this doesn't last. Eventually you run out of payers. it's human nature to eventually grow tired of working hard so someone else…

With the ongoing automation of everything and a population reaching 7.5 billion, a basic income or a standard of living is going to be inevitable.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#280

Post by DanI-S » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 2:32 PM UTC

Suncho wrote: post #265

eatitraw wrote: post #176

There are so many people excited about all these "equality" bills, and nobody criticizes it. So I'll just leave it there: http://paulgraham.com/inequality.html

Paul Graham misses the mark here. I agree with him that it doesn't make sense to try to get rid of income inequality and that income inequality can actually be a positive driving force in the economy. However, it's possible to take money from the rich and give it to the poor, thereby making the poor richer, without preventing income inequality from continuing to increase. Just do it at a low enough rate. And it's not…

He also attempts to justify the social implications of his position by saying that we can still have high levels of risk-taking and innovation but without suffering an oligarchy by severing the connection between wealth and power.

This is a nice idea, but in reality the power that comes with wealth is an even greater motivator than the improved quality of life that comes with cash. He suggests that his motivation for becoming wealthy was increased security; well, what position is more secure than one of great power? There's no reason that removing the link between wealth and power would reduce motivation less than flattening top level income.